Talk:African-American stereotypes

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Contents 1 Negative Images of Blacks 2 Magic Negroe 3 This "article" is a disgrace! 4 Suggestions for improvement 5 Listcruft 6 Rename proposal 7 Suggestions 8 Abysmally uninformed and uninformative list cruft 9 Eldridge Cleaver's Soul on Ice 10 Some sources/references. Also, gender stereotypes.

This article was nominated for deletion on December 9, 2006. The result of the discussion was NO CONSENSUS.

Hello. This page is directly copied/pasted from Ethnic stereotypes in American media. I created it because I believed this subtopic deserves its own focused page. Also, I want this new article to be able to explore racial stereotyping in all areas of public consciousness, not confined to just "media." Since it's basically a direct copy/paste it is obviously in need of extensive editing to make it an independent article, so please contribute. Thanks! --Drenched 19:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Negative Images of Blacks

What is a negative image? The idea of an image being positive or negative is a value judgement that is purely subjective. Doesn't belong on wikipedia. The sources are still important, and we can say a person wrote about percieving an image as negative. But the way the article reads now, it makes value judgements like that violent people are worse than nonviolent people. Not a fact!-ShadowyCabal 18:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not actively editing this page and am not responsible for the contents, but I think the statistics/examples given in that section are decent. I think there are pretty widespread ideas of what is negative in our society; i.e. homicide is negative, incarceration is negative, profanity is negative, violence is negative. Not much controversy there. You could argue that's just my personal opinion or the opinion of the person who wrote the content, but it's pretty safe to say that these "value judgements" are the judgements of American society in general. Yes, judgements are subjective, but a lot of things in life are subjective and can be written about in a scholarly and encyclopedic way, or else articles about any ideal or abstract concept ever would not exist. And clearly, they do exist. Lots of articles; in good repute too. --Drenched 00:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think any of your examples are neccesarilly negative. Homocide can be positive in the right context. And I know a lot of Blacks that are proud of their use of profanity and violence. And those are just extreme examples. Is eating fried chicken negative? It's widely considered unhealthy. What about having a large penis? That could go either way, really. Here's one, how about liking diamonds? Is materialism negative? See my point? As for it's use in scholarly work: I think its important for a scholar to be a little subjective. But this shit doesn't belong on wikipedia as such. ShadowyCabal 02:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course there are many different counterculture viewpoints and ways of interpreting various aspects of life. I am talking about "negative" from a mainstream-American-society perspective, in the way that encyclopedias are mainstream general sources of knowledge. From this majority mainstream perspective, profanity, incarceration, and violence are seen as being negative. But look, if the title of the section bothers you because of its subjectivity, I am not opposed to changing it. The statistical content remains the same as actual and objective trends in American media, and the presence of these trends deserves to be acknowledged in this encyclopedic body of knowledge. I'll change the title of the section to make it more objective. --Drenched 03:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Much better. ShadowyCabal 11:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magic Negroe

Do we agree that media examples should remain out of this particular article? - ShadowyCabal 00:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This "article" is a disgrace!

Well intended as its creation may have been, this "article" has simply become a magnet for cruft from anonymous contributors, full of unsubstantiated claims and "popular" stereotypes. It represents violations of WP:NPOV and WP:OR at their worst, and has no encyclopedic value whatsoever. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 20:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree and I've nominated it for deletion. --Ezeu 20:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Since there is an AfD in progress, I blanked the non-NPOV, unsourced and OR lists (I didn't delete them because of the anti-vandal bots) ... if it's cut down to a stub, then maybe it will stop attracting cruft. --72.75.105.165 04:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for improvement

While the article does a commendable job of trying to address and categorize patternable stereotypes of Black people in media, it could definitely be improved with the introduction of actual examples of black caricatures of blacks from the slavery/post-Reconstruction periods. Examples of such being "Jezebel", "Zip coon", "Mammy", "Pickaninnies", and "Nate". Each of these are caricatures that were parodied and portrayed in various forms of theater (blackface), cartoons (Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs), and film (such as characters portayed by actress Hattie McDaniel.

If others approve, I'll start adding my own examples, but any help would definitely be appreciated. King Zeal 14:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Our approval is not required ... without reliable sources for the citations, your examples would violate the official policy of No Original Research and would be immediately reverted ... see Talk:Magical negro for what happened with a similar "list of examples" ... things like that turn into cruft magnets for every reader who "thinks of an example" ... look at the edit history of Magical negro and see how often the same unsourced examples keep having to be deleted. No, it would be a Very Bad Idea to start adding "your own" examples. --72.75.85.159 15:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that my asking for "approval" was just a formality. I'm not asking that anything unsourced be added. However, my point is that there are simply more substantial and defined examples of ethnic stereotypes that can be presented. For example, Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs is a far better example of racial stereotypes than almost anything else. That's all I was trying to say. King Zeal 15:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see the version from a month ago with the unsourced list as it was at the time of the AfD, and read the AfD discussion that led to a lot of WP:NOR material being removed (and reverts when people tried to restore it) ... this article has a history as part of a bigger picture. --72.75.85.159 17:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, read all that. I don't see how that makes my suggestions any less applicable, if that was your intention. King Zeal 17:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listcruft

During the AfD discussions for this article, one of the biggest problems was the unsourced, Original Research list of examples ... it was just a cruft-magnet and the source of constant vandalism and reverts ... since it was still being debated, I just used <!-- --> to make a comment out of the lists, because i didn't want to attract the anti-vandal bot, and I thought that it could be deleted later.

Well, it's been restored twice by the simple (uncommented) edit of blanking two lines (thereby not attracting any attenting for a large edit change) ... since it's so easy to restore, I have deleted it completely ... I know that this will not stop someone from restoring it from an earlier version, but if these newbie editors don't bother reading this talk page first, then I doubt that they are smart enough to be able to restore it without damaging intervening edits. —72.75.85.159 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rename proposal

I propose the name be changed to Stereotypes of African-Americans and the scope be adjusted to black Americans in the United States. The history of treatment of black people in the United States is not the same as in other Western societies, and the stereotypes cannot be so easily grouped together and defined as one. -Emiellaiendiay 20:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

Topics that should be covered, mentioned, or referenced:

• Sambo
• Uncle Tom
• Blackface and minstrel shows
• The film Bamboolzed
• Jim in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn
• Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man
• Modern hip-hop and "gangsta" culture and associated stereotypes

The article should be organized in a chronological approach, covering different historical stereotypes and ending with today.

- Emiellaiendiay 21:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abysmally uninformed and uninformative list cruft

This article is little more than, as someone stated earlier, "list cruft." How the hell can there be any kind of credible article on this subject without a discussion of racism and white supremacy? Answer: ain't no way.

Without some sort of cultural and historical context and development, this article is worthless and meaningless and little more than just another article on wikipedia that will become a convenient and inviting spot for racist mischief makers and jerks to once again empty their stinking, cesspool-like minds onto another web page. deeceevoice 16:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like its slavery that needs to be discussed, not the larger ideologies of racism and white supremacy-- specifically slavery is what should be added to the article. Many of the major stereotypes/archetypes of blacks in America were developed under slavery. The sambo stereotype developed out of white masters cowing submissive black slaves. The article also needs information on the "trickster" stereotype. (Unsigned post.)

Actually, the trickster figure is an element of black folklore. It is not a stereotype. There are archetypical figures in black/African-American culture, though, like the "bad" nigger/Stagga Lee. The trickster is one of those (and, of course, it is African in origin).deeceevoice 11:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

DCV, aside from slavery, how has racism/white supremacism played in to these stereotypes?--Urthogie 16:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The "darky" stereotypes of the minstrel show age were child's play compared to the deplorable "coon" stereotypes of the Reconstruction period and later. Slavery gave us the happy, musical, stupid slave and the happy, musical, and stupid dandy (Nothern black); Reconstruction gave us the hard-drinking, dice-playing, razor-wielding sociopath. Now, you could argue (and scholars have) that the later stereotype only emerged because whites had lost the institution of slavery with which to control blacks, but I think supremacy is the larger issue here, not just slavery. I think Deeceevoice is on the money here. — Brian 22:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

How did supremacy cause the coon stereotype to exist? Sound like a notable opinion if we could find it, but how exactly does the reasoning go? And what Reliable Sources have actually offered this view?--Urthogie 23:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What would be the alternate view of how that stereotype came about? At any rate, I've got a ton of notes on coon songs, and I plan to put my efforts into writing that article, rather than this one. — Brian 02:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=African-American_stereotypes&oldid=93213146 for the crufty lists that let to the most recent AfD ... at least it's not the OR magnet it used to be.

I also think that the recent renaming was a mistake ... see Ethnic stereotypes in American media for the parent article and the siblings created at the same time with corresponding names ... people should be more dilligent in their research before making such changes, like checking "What links here" first. --141.156.216.67 23:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eldridge Cleaver's Soul on Ice

Sometime around 1968, EC rolled out his own version of the stock black stereotypes: the super masculine menial, etc., etc. These should be included here. If no one else does it, I suppose I'll get around to it sometime; I have the book around here somewhere.... As well, I have a list I copied from a source somewhere that dates back to about 1973 or so -- my handwritten list. (Just came across it the other day. Now, where'd I put it?) The source is likely considerably older than that. I'll dig that up, too, and present it here. Again, in order to be an article, rather than a glorified list, this piece desperately needs historical, social and political context. Urthogie, I haven't answered your question because it's just too obvious. And if you don't understand how racism and white supremacy shaped black stereotypes, I don't think I feel like explaining it to you. You'll just have to read the article once it's (hopefully) properly developed, or take the initiative and find out on your own. Or, maybe Brian has the patience/inclination; I, frankly, have neither. deeceevoice 11:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some sources/references. Also, gender stereotypes.

I'm not sure these links will work because you might have to be subscribed to JSTOR, but I just did a quick search of articles so that someone can follow up if they want to spearhead de-crufting the article & including scholarly content. In case the links don't work I included the titles/authors so you can look it up other ways. I haven't actually read the articles but they looked promising.

• Stereotypical Strategies: Black Film Aesthetics, Spectator Positioning, and Self-Directed Stereotypes in "Hollywood Shuffle" and "I'm Gonna Git You Sucka" by Harriet Margolis. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-7101%28199921%2938%3A3%3C50%3ASSBFAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-7
• Public Perceptions of Race and Crime: The Role of Racial Stereotypes by Jon Hurwitz; Mark Peffley. Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0092-5853%28199704%2941%3A2%3C375%3APPORAC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F
• Metastereotypes: Blacks' Perceptions of Whites' Stereotypes of Blacks by Lee Sigelman; Steven A. Tuch. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0033-362X%28199721%2961%3A1%3C87%3AMBPOWS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-A
• The Ball Curve: Calculated Racism and the Stereotype of African American Men by Ronald E. Hall. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9347%28200109%2932%3A1%3C104%3ATBCCRA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-I
• Racial Stereotypes and Whites' Political Views of Blacks in the Context of Welfare and Crime by Mark Peffley; Jon Hurwitz; Paul M. Sniderman. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0092-5853%28199701%2941%3A1%3C30%3ARSAWPV%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z
• Stripping Away Myths: Improving the Lot of African Americans by Changing The American Racial Stereotype. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1077-3711%28199621%290%3A11%3C110%3ASAMITL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

I hope those links are helpful. Also, I think there ought to be some mention of gender-specific stereotypes of African Americans. I remember learning about stereotyping of African American matriarchs in particular...that they were perceived as being either the matronly asexual woman who raises the White family (e.g. Gone with the Wind), or an overbearing single mother who is abusive or overly aggressive with her children, & there were a few more that I learned about but don't remember. This isn't my area of expertise & I'm sure there's a lot more that could be said about that subject, but I'm just throwing the idea out there. --Drenched 23:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)