Talk:Afrikaner
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[edit] Archived discussion
Refer to Talk:Afrikaner /Archive 22/09/06 for an archive of closed discussions.
[edit] Classification
Aside from the problem with weasel words (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words) this section does not cite any sources or explain the historical limit of this classification which is no longer relevant. Is it perhaps a joke or a hoax?
Aside from these glaring problems, the main issue regarding "classification" (white + Afrikaans = "Afrikaner") is not even mentioned as if it is a commonly accepted classification or "ethnic group". The main problem with this assumption or classification however, is that according to the article on ethnicity a shared language and race does not constitute an "ethnic group". In modern times "Afrikaner" can at best be described as a "cultural group" that possibly also includes aspects of religion and cultural traditions in addition to language and race. The other concern is the political nature of the term that meant different things at different historical periods. --Deon Steyn 12:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- I rewrote this section to be more accurate and balanced. --Deon Steyn 13:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I moved the rewritten section here for justification of statements before it replaces the section in the main article. See "Text under discussion" below: -Gemsbok1 09:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Text under discussion
___________________________________________________________________________________________
<--The term Afrikaner has different meanings according to the historical context[citation needed]. The classification of people into an Afrikaner ethnic group is also dependent on the historical period and quite problematic in a modern context.[citation needed]
[edit] Historical
As described earlier in the article the term was first used by the early Dutch colonists at the beginning of the 18th century. Clearly they could not constitute a distinct ethnic group at that time, because they were still ethnically Dutch and later French and German before they formed a homogenous group.
Over time this group formed a distinct cultural identity with shared language (Afrikaans), religion and identity, distinct from their original respective ancestors as well as later British colonial powers.
- Cape Dutch
- The colonists at the Cape who did not take part in the Great Trek.
- Boers
- Because if the resultant divide both geographically and possibly ideologically between the Cape Dutch and the participants in the Great Trek, these groups grew apart. This group comprises those who had established themselves in the eastern Cape frontier and the Republican Afrikaners who trekked inland during the Great Trek.
This distinction no longer exists, because people freely move between all areas of the South Africa. Today only regional dialects differentiate Afrikaans people from different areas, much like any other country. These dialects are however regional and more numerous than merely "Cape Dutch" or "Boer".
[edit] Modern
Currently it is difficult to classify anyone as an Afrikaner [citation needed] – whether as ethnic or cultural group – based solely on a combination of language and race. Even if a person is of obvious European descent and they speak Afrikaans as a first language, it is almost impossible to claim a large genealogical link to the original Afrikaners of the Cape Colony or the subsequent ethnic group due to intermarriage with other European settlers[citation needed], especially the large number of British descent.
The population of white or European Afrikaans first language speakers are also far from homogenous with regard to religion, politics or cultural practices [citation needed].
Even the Afrikaans historian, Hermann Giliomee, described the classification as: (Afrikaans) "enige iemand wat lief is vir die land en wat lief is vir Afrikaans" (English: "anyone who loves the land and who loves Afrikaans"). [1] --> ________________________________________________________________________________________________
[edit] Discussion
The above text does not provide citations for five sweeping statements, which forms a unilateral declaration that Afrikaners do not exist as an identifiable Ethnic group today. The writer of the above text therefore ignores the generally accepted fact in South Africa where even current president Thabo Mbeki refers to Afrikaners in speeches to parliament, refer Pres. Mbeki speech. The writer of above text must first provide Sociological citations for his statements, which I as an Afrikaner do not agree with. The writer also do not consider the naturalisation of traditional English South Africans as Afrikaners when they intermarried and adopted Afrikaans as mother tongue together with the Afrikaner culture.
The following links are citations of external sources, other than the speech of President Mbeki, who also believe that the Afrikaner ethnic group does in fact exist:
The above citations, which are only a small and very incomplete list, proves that "Afrikaners" is a commonly accepted classification of an ethnic group.-Gemsbok1 10:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- First off, please familiarise yourself with some standard Wikipedia practices, notably:
- Discussing a good faith edit before reverting it.
- Manual of style guidelines for talk pages: Help:Talk page
- As for the last edit, it replaced completely unsubstantiated (without cited sources) claims that the current Afrikaner population is divided into two groups ("cape dutch" and "boers"). Secondly, nowhere in my edits do I claim that there is no group as "Afrikaners" whether it is ethnic or cultural. I simply clarified that it is not a simple question of being "white" and "afrikaans speaking". If you refer to your own external sources you would see they further qualify add certain religious affiliations and according to the last census there was 2,5mil white Afrikaans first language speakers, but only 1.5mil white members of the Dutch Reformed church (language unknown). It has to be made clear that this is not a typical "ethic group" such as "Serbian" that can be distinguished by langue of "african american" that can be distinguished by race, but a combination of factors including: genealogy, race, language and religion.
- I have attempted to bring balance and neutrality to this section, perhaps we can add more, but please discuss first. No one is trying to deny the existance of this group, merely trying to clarify it's complicated definition. --Deon Steyn 11:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
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- Yeah well, you did not discuss the previous edit compiled by myself and Elf-friend before changing it. You will also find plenty of discussions around the matter in the archived talk page.
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- The article on ethnic groups clearly states that "An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community."
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- It is therefore clear that the classification of ethnic groups is much more complex than you let it on to be, according to your statement "It has to be made clear that this is not a typical "ethic group" such as "Serbian" that can be distinguished by langue of "african american" that can be distinguished by race, but a combination of factors including: genealogy, race, language and religion."
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- It therefore seems that all ethnic groups are classified by the combination of factors that you refer to, which nullifies your argument that Afrikaners are not a "typical ethnical group". I therefore suggest that you study sociology before you state what a typical ethnical group looks like or not.
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- With regards to your reference to the Dutch Reformed Church, I suggest that you note that a common religion is cited for ethnic group classification, not a common denomination. I am for instance not a member of the Dutch Reformed Church, but I am a Christian.--Gemsbok1 13:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Afrikaners as an ethnical group is way too distinctive for you to label all white South Africans with Afrikaans surnames as "Afrikaners". I grew up in Bellville and our neighbours' son had Afrikaans surname just because of 1 father from 1 generation, all other generations were Flemish and also had Flemish surnames. He even looks Flemish, but spoke Afrikaans. So can you really call him "Afrikaner"? His name is Werner Greeff. Why provide scientific citations (as you ask) when this example proves to you that "Afrikaans + White = Afrikaner" simply does not work.WickedHorse 22:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
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- All white South Africans with Afrikaans surnames, who speaks Afrikaans as a mother tongue and who identifies with the Afrikaner way of life, are by default Afrikaners. Some may even have English, German, French or Flemish surnames. Afrikaners share the same genetic code as the North and Western European ethnic groups of today, these groups therefore only need to make the cultural shift to become Afrikaners or any one of the other groups. Follow the genetics, and you'll find that Afrikaners, Dutch, Germans, English, Flemish and the French share the same genetic make-up. Between all of these peoples, the dividing line is what they do during every-day life. I did not ask for broad scientific citations, I asked for sociological citations. --Gemsbok1 16:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Even with the most accurate sociological citations, neither myself or you would know what Okkert Brits's mother tongue is or whether he really identifies with the Afrikaner way of life. The same for all the other people you blindly categorise into "Afrikaner". And according to you, a person from the Western European ethnic groups merely has to associate with the Afrikaans culture to become an Afrikaner. What about "mother tongue" and surname? You contradict yourself. --WickedHorse 20:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- So now you, Gemsbok1, change your tune again and you qualify the group "Afrikaner" with "Afrikaans as a mother tongue and who identifies with the Afrikaner way of life". This basically then comes down to a choice and canyou enlighten us all as to what exactly the Afrikaner way of life is? As for not being a typical ethnic group, I stand by that claim, because the majority of ethnic groups have a much clearer definition than things like "identifying with a way of life". --Deon Steyn 05:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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- I still stand by the definition given, i.e. an Afrikaner is someone from European ancestry, who speaks Afrikaans as a mother tongue and who associate with the Afrikaner culture (commonly known as the Afrikaner way of life). My previous statement above about racial ancestry focused on that area only, not the entire definition. You may refer to the "Culture" section to find some detail about the Afrikaner culture. How is the English people's definition clearer than the Afrikaner one, Deon Steyn? WickedHorse, I know as a commonly known fact about celebrities, that Okkert Brits's mother tongue is Afrikaans. Please indicate the people I classified as being Afrikaners, who you can prove does not fit the definition. --Gemsbok1 17:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Going on current definitions of "Afrikaner", the onus is on you to prove that Okkert Brits's mother tongue is Afrikaans and that he associates with the Afrikaner Culture. Unless you cite personal interviews from media references or other similar reliable sources, you are purely speculating these people's "Afrikaner" ethnicity, and must have a third agenda as Deon Steyn has speculated. Nevertheless, in the absense of proof provided by you as explained above, I will start removing all of the people in the Category:Afrikaners from that category unless properly proven by explicit sources in each and every article about the person, starting as soon as I get time. --WickedHorse 18:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- The fact is – as you have admitted – that a person should associate themselves with Afrikaner "culture" so you can not simply use race and language to label someone as "Afrikaner". Your second argument comparing "Afrikaner" to English people is not a valid one either, because the one is much younger and started off as a combination of several diverse ethnic groups, apart from that it is a group closely associated to a nationality which is another important difference. --Deon Steyn 06:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I have acted in good faith when I compiled the category for Afrikaners. If you delist anyone from the category without citing proof as to why they are not Afrikaners, I will argue vandalism on your part and ask for arbitration from wikipedia. You cannot force your one sided relativism view of the Afrikaner people and culture like this. You are not acting in good faith towards Wikipedia and merely using it as a mouthpiece for your current political views. The Afrikaner ethic group is in exactly the same situation as the Welsh people, Xhosa people, Zulu people etc. with regards to the anomalies that worry you, you are therefore welcome to place your arguments in the Ethnic groups article where these global issues can be discussed. -Gemsbok1 07:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Again, please note etiquette and guidelines for Talk pages, by occasionally indenting response (see Help:Talk page). So you are saying that you are allowed to make unsubstantiated claims and if anyone changes that, they are vandals? In that case, please also familiarise yourself with Wikipedia:Vandalism. As for the Afrikaner ethnic group being in "exactly the same situation as the Welsh people, Xhosa people, Zulu people", this is a false notion, because they are very different in terms of the different defining characteristics:
- histories ("Afrikaner" is shorter)
- politics (Afrikaner; first use was political, subsequent connotations)
- even genetics ("Afrikaner" mixture of several European groups... mostly)
- language (3.5 mil coloured Afrikaans first language speakers, only 2.5 mil "white").
- So please stop pretending that this is a straight forward simple ethnic group like any other. I'm not saying there is no such group, all we are trying to say is that:
- it is a complex definition
- in some cases, it should be seen in a certain context.
- This is how Wikipedia is supposed to represent a NPOV by showing all sides and facets.--Deon Steyn 08:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Deon Steyn summed it up pretty well. Gemsbok1, would I be correct in saying that you want to assign people on Wikipedia to a certain category without proof that, according to the definition on the Afrikaner article, they fit that definition, and then when someone wants to remove it from the category, they are the ones that must submit proof that these people do NOT belong to the category? It does not work like that. Please refer to Wikipedia:Categorization of people. We can discuss it further on the Category_talk:Afrikaners page, but I will proceed with the removals unless properly cited. You seem to think that I may have other reasons for doing this (political, personal views, etc) but I assure you that I merely want these actions to adhere to proper Wikipedia standard procedures, nothing more, nothing less. Can you give me the same assurance? --WickedHorse 09:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] White nationalism - Do Afrikaners exist?
The statements made in the "White Nationalism" section were deleted as no cited references were given. Furthermore the "White Nationalism" section implied that the term "Afrikaners" were only recently being classified as an ethnic group in order for them to be able to claim ethnic separation. This is nonsense, as the Afrikaners were recognised as an ethnic group by independent parties long before Apartheid came to an end. I cite the following independent sources as proof of the existence of the Afrikaner ethic group:
- Strategyleader on Afrikaners
- Countrystudies on Afrikaners
- Southafricanhistoryonline on Afrikaners
- Pres. Mbeki speech
- Institute for Security Studies on 'VOLK' FAITH AND FATHERLAND
Agreed on your comments here. But Deon Steyn has made an interesting point that seem to (theoretically) describe exactly what you are trying to achieve (I am speculating here). I would not be surprised that the part is reverted again tomorrow and he comes back with full references (addressing your first problem) and rewording the part (adressing your second problem). We shall see. --WickedHorse 19:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- Please sign your comments, User:Gemsbok1 and please refrain from once again deleting or reverting sections conflicting with your view. Nowhere did that section state that there is no such ethnic group as Afrikaner. It merely shows the – sometimes political – motives, context and history of some of the very strict pseudo-scientific definitions of this "ethnic group". It is common knowledge – explained in the very references you cite – that the term "Afrikaner" has been used and changed at different times to suite different purposes. In Chapter 2 of of your last reference (Institute for Security Studies on 'VOLK' FAITH AND FATHERLAND), [1] it clearly states how the "National Party" sought to unite politically diverse group by a "three-pronged strategy to promote and establish Afrikaner nationalism and to promote a separate Afrikaner identity by creating consciousness among Afrikaners based on their language, religion and traditions" in the first half of the 20th century.
- A neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV) is one of the basic principles of Wikipedia and we must guard against bias – or worse yet – subtle political undertones. I say this now, because I notice a worrying trend whereby certain editors are trying to steer a group of articles in a particular political direction. I fear that not all editors are aware of the related pages and do not see the full context when only looking at one or another. The pages in question are (apart from this one for Afrikaner):
- Volkstaat, currently not balanced and closely related to this page
- Category:Afrikaners, seeks to appropriate people for the group
- List of notable Afrikaners
- Crime in South Africa
- South African Farmer Murders, currently under review
- There seems to be an effort to allign these pages in subtle ways to suite a particular point of view and other editors should please take note and beware. --Deon Steyn 06:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, it seems that you want to change all articles not showcasing your view. Secondly, I never said that there were no political connotations to the Afrikaner term, I emphasized that I did not agree with your political view of the term. Your effort at extreme cultural reletavism is obvious in your statements, so do not even try to pretend as if you are presenting a neutral point of view. I have been editing the Afrikaner and Volkstaat articles to get rid of a extremely biased and sometimes racist right wing view, but some of those views are applicble therefore none with references were deleted. I did not contribute in any major way to the List of notable Afrikaners, or the Crime in South Africa article. I did start the Category:Afrikaners and used the already populated List of notable Afrikaners as a guide to add the individual articles to the category. If a trend develops in certain articles and these trends are referenced to valid sources, you should consider that they may contain the truth. -Gemsbok1 07:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Firstly, I would think that all editors want should correct all articles that are biased, not neutral or not balanced. I don't have any political affiliation and I don't have any political view of the term, I merely pointed out that the term has certain political connotations and in some circles it is used as a political tool. This trend found in most "Afrikaner" related articles most definitely does not constitute either a truth, a representative view or a historical fact. So please, let us all get the full background and balanced views from all sides. --Deon Steyn 09:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Post Apartheid
The South African referendum, 1992 was held on 17 March 1992. In it, South Africans were asked to vote in the last tricameral election held under the apartheid system, in which the Coloured and Indian population groups could also vote, to determine whether or not they supported the negotiated reforms begun by then State President F.W. de Klerk two years earlier.
This should be re-written. It sounds like the Coloureds and Indians would have voted in the referendum. That is wrong, only white citizens where allowed to vote in national referendum. Dr.Poison 21:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Problematic
I think that, for the sake of objectivity, it should be stated in the article's introduction that 'Afrikaner' is a highly problematic term for which several conflicting definitions currently exist.
- Don't know who posted the above, but yes, in principle I would agree with that. --WickedHorse 08:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Typical Afrikaner
I've included a section on what a lot of people think of as a typical Afrikaner, as being overweight and uncivilised because it's necessary to remove this prejudice, considering Apartheid is 13 years behind them. I followed the style used in the hillbilly page on wikipedia and if someone wishes to remove it please do tell me why.
82.2.88.225 18:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Seems to be rather filled with overgeneralizations and it's not very NPOV.. ~
"(The Afrikaner just want to be left alone. They dont care much for different cultures. However this has changed dramatically over the last few years as more and more young Afrikaners had to go overseas, because they were to white to apply for jobs in South Africa"
That looks very POV to me, so do the others..... 217.39.175.141 11:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Boer
I know that strictly speaking the term Boer is applied to farmer or 'peasant' but all the 'Afrikaners' I've met, and that's probably about 7 or 8, have referred to themselves as Boers, perhaps we should have a seperate article for Afrikaners and Boers, but include most of this one in the Boer one because Boers are whites whereas 'Afrikaners' include elements of the coloured community who consider themselves Afrikaner.
If someone could tell me why certain 'Afrikaners' find the term Boer offensive please do tell me, it only means peasant in the sense that it means common people.
P.S. I've used Leonard Van Os.' Self- Taught Afrikaans to get these definitions I'm sure wikipedia has some fluent Afrikaans speakers to please correct me.
86.27.49.214 10:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Boer is a very ambiguous term (the article covers that rather well). Afrikaners often jokingly refer to themselves and each other as "boere" (plural of boer), and most will accept the term if it is used by another ethnic group. The term is never used formally where "Afrikaner" is meant. However: The term can easily be taken or mistaken as an insult, often leading to flared tempers. Compare with "nigger" (sorry if that offends anyone. if it does, I give them permission to call me a boer.) An example is a piece of graffiti next to a road in Johannesburg: "kill the boer." It Should also not be confused with the real meaning of the word (farmer). From your happy Afrikaans friend, Goldfritter 16:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Overgeneralisations?
That's my point, it's the way that a lot of people generalise about white South Africans and particularly Afrikaners and it's highly offensive for a lot of them and because so many believe it this article could be a platform for spreading knowledge and eradicating ignorance.
BOV1993 19:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Afrikaner Nation
Perhaps we should have an article emphasising that there is an Afrikaner nation, more so than one of English- speaking South African whites who still have ties with Britain. The fact is that they are a large group of people (at least 2,700,000) and have been seperate from Europe for at least 200 years. They have a different culture, a different language. I've heard ignorant people say if they're forced out of Africa one way or another that they'll be coming 'home'? It's not like they've been on holiday, they've had probably 8 or 9 generations at least who've been born there (more for some of the original Dutch settlers' descendants) born and raised in Africa.
They have a nation because:
- They have a history together, they're bound as an ethnic group by hardship, wars and a common culture
- Their own language
- A clearly defined homeland, which they recognise as where they come from
- No ties outside of Africa for most of them, other than commercially
- A culture seperate from that of their ancestors in Holland, Germany, Belgium or France
So if someone with more knowledge of their culture than myself could start an Afrikaner Nation page it would be productive in my opinion.
BOV1993 15:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
- Any such discussion or information would relate directly to this page and would not require a separate article. As for what constitutes an "Afrikaner", well that has also been thrashed out extensively on this article's talk page (see the archives) and is also covered extensively in the article. The fact is, there is great debate on what constitutes an Afrikaner ethnic group (if one could define such a group). In any event, adding the nation suffix would do nothing, but evoke 'white supremacist' language and notions. --Deon Steyn 06:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Afrikaner Americans?
Are there Afrikaner Americans? If so, i think wikipedia needs to have an article about them. Gringo300 05:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
