Template talk:Airlines of Canada

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I really like that someone has gone and done this template. It is however missing HeliJet. Ben W Bell 06:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't figure out if they were an airline or a hellicopter company. And thanks, I think it was overdue. I only put in active airlines, not merged or defunct airlines. -- Spinboy 06:22, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

They are mainly a helicopter operator, but an airline is a company that operated scheduled air transportation of frieght or passenegers so it doesn't matter if they are just helicopter or not I believe it means they are an airline. Anyway they do operate a couple of Beech 1900 turboprops though I'm, not sure if that is just freight or not. I think they should go in, their pages is marked as an airline stub. I would have added it but didn't want to mess up what looks like nice formatting. Ben W Bell 06:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I may be wrong on this, but when I think of airline, I think of airplanes, not helicopters, thus I don't think they merit inclusion on the template. -- Spinboy 06:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I liberated the template for this from Airlines of the United Kingdom, so if you can find a template such as these, that includes helicopters, I'd be more than happy to have it included here. -- Spinboy 06:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

An Airline is for moving passengers through the air, regardless of what form of air transport it is. The opening line in the article supports this, HeliJet is on the List of airlines, and after just checking the HeliJet website they do use the Beech turboprop for passenger flights. Ben W Bell 06:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it is on that list wrongly then. Our own article on airlines makes no mention of helicopters that I could see. Granted it's going on 3 am, so I could have missed something. So as I aid, if you can find it in a similar template, then great. -- Spinboy 06:52, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll have a look, though the problem is there are so few helicopter airlines in the world. A lot of charter companies, but they don't count as airlines, but very few scheduled ones. Plus I don't believe the US (who has the majority of the few) has any of these templates. Anyway the fact that HeliJet operates scheduled fixed wing passenger services makes them an airline. Ben W Bell 06:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

That's very true, they don't have a template. The UK one though, doesn't include a helicopter company at all. I had a look. I'm not sure how many other templates like this there are. I posed the question over at Talk:List of airlines. True, so which airlines merit inclusion, and which don't? IMHO, HeliJet doesn't merit inclusion. -- Spinboy 07:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe the UK has a scheduled helicopter company, I live there and I've never heard of one, so it's a bad example. I'm a Wikipedia inclusionist, I feel that everything that fits should have a place. I feel it is an airline as it provides scheduled air travel for passengers and freight. One of the lines in the Airline article states, "The scale and scope of airline companies ranges from those with a single airplane carrying mail or cargo, through full-service international airlines operating many hundreds of airplanes in various types." HeliJet has scheduled airplanes carrying passengers. The Helijet article is in the List of airlines, is in the categories Category:Airline stubs and Category:Airlines of Canada (added not by myself but by others) and is included in various airline pages so there are other wikipedians besides myself who think it is an airline. Oh by the way, this isn't an argument, I'm just having a two sided discussion here. :) Ben W Bell 07:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The line doesn't mention anything about helicopters. If you wish, I can rename the template to Commercial Airplane Carriers of Canada, if that is needed to get the point of this template accross. HeliJet's airplanes seem to only be used for search and resue, thus, I ask, which get included, and which do not? I really intended it (and I know this is a wiki anyone can edit) for commercial airlines, that provide regular, schedule flights, that someone has heard of, not a helicopter company that doesn't fit in the definition of airline.

Wiktionary defines airline as: 1. company that flies airplanes to transport people and goods -- Spinboy 17:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

To add more fuel to the fire, the Cambridge Online Dictionary defines airline as: a business that operates regular services for carrying passengers and/or goods by aircraft: What airline did you fly?[1] -- Spinboy 17:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Also Copterline is listed in Wikipedia quite blatantly as an airline. Ben W Bell 07:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I went back to HeliJet's article, and it makes no mention of the use of airplanes. From the listing of it's crafts, they all appear to be helicopters. -- Spinboy 17:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

My bad, they have one Beechcraft 1900D Turboprop, that is used for medical equipment transportation. They aren't a commercial airline that flies anywhere important. -- Spinboy 18:01, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Ben here. An airline is any company that flies aircraft (NOT just aeroplanes/airplanes) carrying passengers or goods for profit. A helicopter is an aircraft (which simply means a craft that travels in the air). Therefore a company that flies them in this way is an airline. I fail to see the problem in definition. This website, incidentally, certainly seems to think that helicopter services are airlines. -- Necrothesp 14:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The dictionary.com definition of an airline is. A business providing a system of scheduled air transport. This fits. Also many Wikipedia users think that companies like HeliJet, Copterline and HeliHongKong are airlines as they are all included in airline categories and lists throughout wikipedia. Ben W Bell 14:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Moving it to Airplane Airlines of Canada is just skirting the issue and causing confusion for the users. Airlines of Canada is better. Ben W Bell 16:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

It is the opinion of the Wikiprojects Airlines that helicopters are an airline, especially if they have an IATA code which is only given to airlines. As a result I'm changing this back to Airlines of Canada (because having a separate category for Airplane Airlines like this is just confusing) and adding HeliJet into it. Ben W Bell 20:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I still disagree with it, and if they wish to voice their opinion they should come here and say it. I would dispute the template, but I can't find the template to do that with. -- Spinboy 18:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute Discussion

Okay, lets open a dispute discussion on this topic then, see if we can come to some sort of an agreement. The basis of the dispute is that Spinboy claims that helicopter operators are not airlines, whereas I argue that they are. The cause of this dispute was my request for HeliJet to be added to the template.

My arguments for it being an airline.

• The Dictionary.com definition of an airline states. "1 A system for scheduled air transport of passengers and freight. 2 A business providing a system of scheduled air transport." I personally believe that not all helicopter operators are airlines, but the company at the core of the dispute is.
• The IATA is an international airline organisation that serves as a representative of airlines and they give out airlines codes to airlines. Not all helicopter operators have an IATA code (and I believe not all of them should) but the company in question (HeliJet) does have an IATA Airline designation code, something only given to airlines.
• The ICAO is a US organsation that also gives out airline codes. ICAO gives out 3 letter codes to Airlines, and again the company at the centre of the dispute has an ICAO airline code.
• HeliJet operates codeshare agreements with Alaska Air and Horizon Air in order to provide some legs of general booked airline flights. If they were not an airline they would not be allowed to perform such codesharing arrangements but they have been accpeted by the regulatory authorities.
• HeliJet is accepted and referenced as an airline by the aviation and airline industry periodicals.
• HeliJet is listed on airline flight websites as an airline [[2]]
• HeliJet is accepted as an airline by editors of Wikipedia. Looking up it's entry on Wikipedia shows that it is in several airline categories and is mentioned in the article as an airline. These edits have been done by several different people, they are not the work of one individual.
• HeliJet appears in the Airlines category on Yahoo.
• The Vancouver Board of Trade (Vancouver is where HeliJet is based) acknowledges it as an airline [[3]]
• When the question was raised on the Wikiprojects:Airlines page it was stated by the project leader that he could see no reason why it wouldn't be considered an airline. [[4]]
• A simple Google (or any other search engine search) will show it listed as an airline on multiple official and company sites.

Ben W Bell 20:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

My reasons are stated above, I'm not going to rehash them. I maintain in the simplest form that they aren't an airline, and don't qualify to be on the template. -- Spinboy 20:22, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Well internationally accepted definitions and regulatory bodies disagree with you on this. Ben W Bell 06:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course Helijet is an airline, they offer scheduled air service. I can't see how anyone can reasonably argue against that. By the way, they have in the past they flew a Beechcraft 1900D plane between Campbell River and Seattle. -- Webgeer 20:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC) (I wanted to add that I don't see the point of excluding them. If you do exclude them and then do you make another template for Helicopter airlines in Canada and include only them? Seems kind of pointless. -- Webgeer 21:06, 30 September 2005 (UTC))

From what I see, there is a lot of evidence that an airline is any sort of air transport and that a scheduled helicopter operator is an airline. There does not seem to be any evidence that specifically states that it would not be an airline. Zhatt 20:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Likewise, I'm in the helicopter-service-can-be-airlines camp. -The Tom 22:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

On the basis of these comments over the last week I'm removing the Disputed line from the template. Ben W Bell 07:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)