Talk:Albanian language Archive 1

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[edit] Work in progress

This page is being supervised by WikiProject Languages. I've just gotten into the project myself, and I've gone and fixed the old pronunciation guide, which was very good but focused on alphabetization. The article as it stands then talks again about the alphabet, and then gives examples using IPA, but these do not coincide with the tables in the Sounds section. What is ll exactly? Velar? Velarized? Pharyngealized? How do we represent it? The examples also show the palatal consonants as palatalized velars; which are they? --Pablo D. Flores 15:30, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of Albanian

Even if Albanian is descended from Illyrian, Illyrian would still be extinct. English is descended from Old English, and further back some Germanic dialect, but they are extinct. French is derived from Latin, which is extinct (as an everyday spoken language, at least).

Then that can be mentioned in the Illyrian languages article. The only point of putting it here that I can see is to insinuate that Albanians have not been in the Balkans for that long. Most sources I have seen do not support that, and I want to maintain the article in NPOV. As it is, the article says "Albanian is thought by some to derive principally from the Illyrian languages" which is not necessarily fact, but just the majority opinion. Dori 00:43, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I guess it is still worth mentioning here why we cannot know for certain whether Albanian language descends from Illyrian. This is because of the scarcity of our knowledge about Illyrian, not because Illyrian is extinct.

If there should be no continuity between Illyrian and Albanian, this doesn't entail that the ancestors of Albanians have not been in Albania so long. Andres 09:25, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't mind you writting your own version of the truth, but if we are using the same historical sources, we should remain faithful to their original wording.

That's what was in this article when I came to Wikipedia. I didn't make it up, and I don't know if it is true. Are you saying you do know what's true (if so simply state based on what)? If you're not saying that then you are just making unsubstantiated claims. If we are to allow unsubstantiated sources, then I would rather leave what I found here. Dori 01:02, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am unaware of any sources that you might have but from what I see in your History of Albania page you recognize the 11th century Byzantine document. that document is from 1043 and mentions Albanians in the army of Giorgas Maniakis, pretender to the throne, conqueror of Southern Italy and Sicily. The Albanians are mentionned as mercenaries that he had brought to Durrës (Dyrrachion) from Southern Italy. Prior to that, there is no mention of Albanians or an Albanian state unless if you wish to claim the Greek principalities as somehow truly Albanian in everything but the name?

You can draw from that whichever conclusion you may wish to...

Igor

I am not asserting any info. I try to give the source to the info I bring in (if I have one), and the history info is properly referenced. I don't know if it is true, I wasn't alive back then. You say you have sources, then mention them. I am not saying they are wrong. Dori 00:56, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

ur all idiots

[edit] Pronunciation guide

Three points:

Not that it makes a difference, but was "danse" intended to be "dance"?

Yes. --Dori

Is "earnings" the best word with which to illustrate the schwa, especially to people (such as me, much of the time) with rhotic accents? I was going to replace it with "women," but I wasn't sure that was a big improvement. A schwa is usually (always?) in an unstressed syllable, so it's hard to come

up with a good example.

No, it's not the same as the e in women. An Albanian would spell earnings as ërnings. A similar sound is also allowed. --Dori

How do Spanish speakers say "gondola"? Is it the sound I've seen as "gh" (i.e., SAMPA /G/)?

That one proved hard for me to figure out. I have heard some Spanish speakers make that sound when mispronouncing some words, but I couldn't remember any correct pronounciations. Perhaps it's more of a sound a Spanish speaker would make when pronouncing John, but not quite. --Dori

I think the way Spanish speakers pronounce the initial "y" (as in "yo") is meant here. As to "g", in "góndola" it should be quite normal; it is different between vowels where it is pronounced as a fricative "gh", as in "luego". So I think: the Albanian "gj" is pronounced approximately like the Spanish "y" in "yo". Andres 19:40, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Isn't "yo" pronounced more like i-o? In which case it would be more like the "j" sound in Albanian. The "gj" sound is somewhere between the albanian pronounciations of "xh", "q" and "j" (the tongue is held flush against the palate). Like I said, I couldn't think of a word in a different language that made the same exact sound. By the way, the "q" pronounciation I gave is also a bad approximation, but again... --Dori 03:09, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

My book says that "gj" is pronounced like "j", except that it is what technically is called a "stop" or a "plosive consonant". Perhaps those wirds are defined in the Wikipedia, I forgot to check it. So, I think the same description holds for the Spanish "y" in the initial position, though it might differ in some nuances. I think they pronounce "John" as "Yon", or maybe not precisely so. And there might be regional differences in the Spanish pronunciation. Andres 07:42, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I looked at the article Spanish language. It does not mention that "y" may be a stop in the initial position. I might be wrong in that point.

I suspect that the Latvian "ģ" sounds like "gj". Andres 07:58, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps the whole thing could be done with SAMPA -- I can look into it after the holidays, it's more fun than working. --Calieber 18:24, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I looked at it, but I lack the expertise (meaning I don't quite understand it, and it probably would not be as exact in the pronounciation). Perhaps a combination with the present guide could be done. If you want to tackle the SAMPA guide, you are more than welcome to. --Dori

I will make a couple of changes to the article to reflect these points. --Dori 18:36, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have prepared a pronunciation sound file for the Albanian alphabet. I will upload and link it as soon as the Wikipedia is ready to accept uploads. --Dori 23:09, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Done, let me know how it sounds. One thing though, for every consonant, there is an extra ë sound after them because that's how the sounds are pronounced in Albanian. That sound is not part of the consonant sound (except for the letter ë itself of course). I don't know if there are any technical ways of explaining this or if it is obvious enough, so I didn't say anything. --Dori 02:50, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks to Pgdudda we now have the SAMPA letters. Dori 23:48, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The first manuscript

The first known manuscript in Albanian is from 1210 by an author known as Teodor Shkodrani in Albanian. 213.35.249.3 05:07, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It looks like that might have been a fake [1] (Albanian sorry), and the person might actually have been Theodore Scutariotes[2] (not an Albanian). I would love it if it were true :) do you have any evidence? --Dori 05:29, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Of course, I am not able to judge if it is a fake. Andres 07:55, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Here's an interview in French with the "discoverer", Dr. Musa Ahmeti: http://www.balkans.eu.org/article1589.html --Dori 23:51, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting

I put the page in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages format, but because there wasn't much info to work with it might look worse than it did. Plus I don't like the sections and how they're arranged in the project template too much. Unfortunately I don't have much time to add to the article yet, but someday I will. In the meantime, any comments and additions are welcomed. Dori | Talk 06:00, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dacian -> Albanians =

http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_9.html

[edit] oldest unwritten language

I removed this:

Albanian is believed to be one of the oldest unwritten languages in the Indo-European family.

I am not sure what he meant here. We cannot know whether it's old or not since it was not written until recently. As for the closeness to Proto-Indo-European, no, it's probably one of the least archaic (although Armenian is probably much more distant from PIE). Bogdan | Talk 18:20, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sound-changes from PIE to Albanian

I'm looking for a chart showing the standard sound-changes from PIE to Albanian. If somebody has a link, that would be nice. Decius 02:31, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Centum or satem?

I've heard, variously, that qind is centum, satem, both, and neither. . . Does anyone know for sure, or is everyone just guessing? —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 21:26, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shqipja

Albanian is Satem ,[ Satëm means "your momma" in albanian] meaning it pertains to the Eastern branch of Indo European, centum being the western one. yes qind is centum,satem. Even though q in albanian is pronounce like the ch in the german word blümchen , i think the eastern branch is the one that changed the k to a 'sh' or 's' sound , while centum had the k unchanged. you gots to study ancient avestan to dig this stuff. Xhamlliku

[edit] God=Zoti or Allah?

I was wondering which word the Albanian Muslims (the majority) use to denote God, Allah or Zoti. Seeing as how I was raised in a Catholic Albanian family from Montenegro (I believe Albanians call it Malesi) I had only heard Zoti, and I was wondering whether the Muslims referred to God as Zoti as well. --Stamford 00:44, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would say that most use Zot to refer to God, and that includes Muslims. But Allah is used in many sayings, most of the time people don't even mean it in a religious way and they might even be Catholics or Atheists for that matter. For example: Allahu na ruajt (literally Allah protects us) or Ishallah (Allah-willing). That's the Ottoman influence showing through. Dori | Talk 01:35, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

Although not as widely used anymore, some also use the word Perëndi. Dori | Talk 06:42, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I've converted all the SAMPA to IPA (with the IPA template, so this should overcome the main objection to IPA that it's not legible in certain popular browsers), but it really needs an indication of the accented syllable in each word. There was no indication of this in the SAMPA, and the imitated English doesn't seem to show it consistently. rossb 12:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabet .ogg file

The .ogg file that recites the alphabet could not be properly played with either ogg123 or VLC, and the OggVorbis QuickTime plug-in could not recognize it at all. Only oggdec could handle the file. Might it be slightly corrupt?

[edit] ancient greek

screw that habib

[edit] Spelling of Geg

Why is Geg spelled Gheg on this site? Now who came up with that? I suggest you stop manipulating Albanian words to make them sound more "English". So please change Gheg to GEG, as it is officially written. (Nuk dua nje te huaj te me nderroje Shqipen, kurva)

Gheg is the English spelling, via Italian. And I believe we're writing in English. kwami 01:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inherited or from Latin

This isn't about anything in the article, I just want to confirm somethings: I have seen a number of linguistic references (Julius Pokorny, Demiraj) say that words such as gjarpër (snake; compare to Latin serpens) and gjumë (sleep; compare to Latin somnus) are native to Albanian: Demiraj for example lists both in his Albanian Inherited Lexicon, and he doesn't say they are from Latin, and neither did Pokorny (though Pokorny's work is from 1959). So, that's what I'm trying to verify, whether these words are native to Albanian and the Latin words are cognates, or whether they are words that were borrowed from Latin. I would prefer that they are native to Albanian, because the more Latin words that Albanians have, the more people try to say that Romanians originate from "south of the Danube" near Albania. And if someone decides to respond, please provide a current reference. Decius 05:46, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know much about Albanian at all, but I would say I'm 95% sure that those are cognates, not borrowings from Latin. Why wouldn't Albanian borrow those words with s rather than gj? It wouldn't make much sense if they were borrowings. Furthermore, looking at other words that I do know are cognates, not borrowings, it seems clear that at some point, Albanian had a sound change of *s > gj (though I don't know what the environment was) (for example, Alb. gjashtë, Latin sex, English six, Proto-Indo-European *s(w)ek^s). I can't give you any references, however, so this is just my own conjecture. Nonetheless, I remain fairly confident that it is basically correct. --Whimemsz 16:24, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Whimemsz, sounds reasonable. I agree that they are probably native to Albanian, and that scenario is what I prefer. Decius 03:35, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bardhyl Demiraj's book (Albanische etymologie) is from 1998--1999, and it is a standard reference on Albanian. It is definitely not outdated, nor does it seem like a "controversial" work. Decius 05:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Linking Issue

For some reason this page cannot be linked to. Am I missing something? See: Party for Democratic Prosperity. freestylefrappe 22:32, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Be careful with the capitalization. "Albanian language" does not have a capital "L". bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 22:35, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I fixed it. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 22:39, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense removed

since the indo-european theory has not been proven

I don't think you'd find a respectable linguist that would agree with that affirmation.

although mik is a monosyllabic word suggesting that the latins borrowed from Albanian.

What has the number of syllabes to do with the source of the word ?

the Albanian language influenced ancient Greek

LOL! :-) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 18:14, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Language vs. Dialect

Albanian Gheg and Tosk, which have some mutual intelligibility are named "separate languages", while Greek Doric and Dhimotiki which have virtually no mutual intelligibility are named "Greek dialects". Any reason for this? bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 17:37, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There should be a Wiki policy that prevents these abuses of terms---unless there already is one. Decius 18:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference."Dialect#"Dialect" or "Language"

Linguists use the term "language" to mean any system of communication. Two languages can be entirely mutually intelligible and still be considered distinct languages, not dialects of the same language (Serbian and Croatian, for example). The eternal Language vs. Dialect question only really troubles the mere mortals among us, as any linguist worth his salt will tell you that a language is just a dialect with a flag and an army. :)--Theathenae 19:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, so Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian. Decius 19:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nope. It has a separate flag and army from Albanian, so it's a language. ;)--Theathenae 20:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And the same of course goes for Aromanian.--Theathenae 20:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They have their own armies? Don't you need your own state to have your own army? Are you talking about "Arvanitic regiments" in the Hellenic Army or something? Decius 20:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say they had their own armies. They simply happen to fall under another flag and army, to the manifest chagrin of people like you. :)--Theathenae 21:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I figured that's what you meant. Greek Assimilation seems to be your passion. Greek assimilation led to the extinction of so many languages already (Macedonian, Paionian, South Thracian, and so on), what's two more, huh? Alright, forget about it. Decius 21:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How many languages were lost when Rumania was Latinised? Your hypocrisy and rabid anti-Hellenism are really quite amusing. Perhaps you should consider changing your surname. I would.--Theathenae 21:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not anti-Hellene and I don't plan on changing my surname. However, there are a number of policies or semi-policies in Greece that I don't agree with, and which cross my path here in Wikipedia at least in these articles. You don't have to tell me your surname, I'm just curious what ethnicity it comes from. If your surname is a Vlach one, I can also advise you to change your surname so you can assimilate even better. Decius 21:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My surname is actually Hebrew. But even if it were Vlach, I would not change it as I am proud of being a Vlach. You're the one who hates being Greek.--Theathenae 21:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't hate being of partly Greek descent, I felt "nauseous" yesterday also because I realized how much I've neglected my Greek history. Anyway, I apologize for some hypocritical things I've said to you in the past and I see that this discussion on whether these Albanian dialects should be called languages is a subjective discussion that won't get us anywhere. Peace, I'm gonna go fish around in some other articles. Decius 21:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hip-hop? And then you have the gall to lecture me on assimilation.--Theathenae 21:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thinking back on a lot of the things you've said however, you seem to be a somewhat evil person, so the only thing I apologize for is my hypocrisy. Decius 01:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh I am the Axis of Evil. Or an Evildoer. Or whatever other hilarious American epithet you want to hurl at me. Mwahahaha...--Theathenae 06:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With the exception of older encyclopedias, the Toska and Ghega are described as distinctive language. Further studies have shown the truth that Albanian language are divided up in two principal dialects, Gheg in the north and Tosk in the south, are separated roughly by the Shkumbin River. The big difference between the Albanian dialects has it's explanation:

The swedish dialect have many similarities and their is no big difference between them, this is because the country Sweden haves a low-level surface and the contact between the swedish dialects have been extensive. In Norway which is topographic alike Albania, high mountains with inaccessible and isolated places, the norwegian dialects are very different to one another cause of the almost non-contact between them.

The Gheg dialect is known to be slightly more archaic than Tosk. A good example to illustrate this is the evolution of the name of the city Vlora in Southern Albania. In antiquity, this city was called Avlona. The Italians call it Valona. In Gheg it is Vlona. In Tosc and now official Albania, it is Vlora, with an 'r'. Here we're dealing with rotacism i.e. 'n' evolves into 'r' for which we can display many other examples. In this respect, as well as others, Gheg is more archaic, and has therefore preserved an older version of our language.

But I have reasons to believe that the Arvanites in Greece and the Arberesh of Italy speak the oldest versions of our language, dialects even more archaic than Gheg. For instance, the word for 'tongue' in Arvanitika is gluha. In Gheg, it is guha; as you can see, the 'l' has been eliminated. Finally, in Tosc and official Albanian we see the most recent form; gjuha. Here the 'l' has been eliminated and the 'g' sound as evolved into the 'gj' sound, which is the equivalent of 'g' in English as in George, but with a much smoother sound to it (the 'xh' sound in our language is the real equivalent to the English 'g'). The arvanitika form is definetely the oldest variant; it's also used by the priest John Buzuku in his book "Meshari" (The Missal) in 1555, a book which was written in the Gheg dialect.

Another example to display this archaic form of Arvanitika is the word for crying, which in Arvanitika is kliaj. In Gheg it is kjaj, or kaj; here, the 'l' has been transformed into 'j' which is common in our language. Recently though, the 'j' has also been eliminated, thus it is just kaj. In Tosc it is qaj; here the 'k' has evolved into 'q', a sound which is the English equivalent of ch as in change, but with a much smoother sound to it (the 'ç' sound is real equivalent to the English 'ch'). The same change is obvious in Makedhonía becoming Maqedonía, where 'k' becomes 'q' but also 'dh' becomes 'd'!

The Arvanites also say klumesht instead of qumesht to milk. This is why I believe their dialect is the most archaic one. And it wouldn't be surprising. Beeing that they were spearated from the main bulk of our population, they preserved the language spoken then, and therefore it has evolved less. The same applies for the Icelandese; beeing that these Vikings separated at an early stage from the main bulk of the Scandinavians, they preserved the most archaic form of ancient Old Norse.

Arvanítika is definitely a variety of Tosk Albanian that have preserved the most archaic form of ancient Albanian language with which it is somewhat mutually intelligible and also to a much lesser degree with Gheg, and is not independent from Albanian language like Theathenae is trying to imply, neither is the dialect spoken by the Arbëreshë people independent from Albanian language. The both dialects are variety of Tosk Albanian, one is influenced by Greek language and the other one by Italian language. --Albanau 09:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Tosk is a dialect of Arvanitic, then, if Arvanitic is the original language? Your examples probably indicate the Greek influence on Arvanitic more than anything else. 'Tongue' in Greek is glóssa and 'he cries' is klaíei. These are both ancient Greek words, not loanwords from Arvanitic or Albanian. It could be the case that Arvanitic preserves ancient Illyrian words which were close cognates of their Greek counterparts, but I would be more inclined to believe they were borrowed directly from Greek, or that Greek influenced the original Illyrian forms. I wouldn't take Arvanitic as an accurate reflection of the original Illyrian tongue, precisely because of this heavy Greek influence. Gheg is probably far closer to the mark, because of its relative isolation and lack of contact with Greek and Latin.--Theathenae 10:07, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Three points: 1)There is no convincing evidence that the Albanian languages are descended from Illyrian languages; 2) Arvanitic gluha may well be from PIE *glogh-ya, from which ancient Greek glossa/glotta also come; 3) Arvanitic kliaj may well be from PIE *kleu, from which anc. Greek klaio/klao also come. I'm betting a linguistic reference would say they are not from Greek. Decius 13:44, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are of course those who believe the Arvanites descend from the Pelasgians and other pre-Hellenic peoples of Greece. I tend to be rather more sceptical about such claims, or claims such as Albanau's that "Language X" is the "true original language" or that the Albanians are the "original people" of the Balkans, etc. The PIE forms you cite are of course hypothetical, so no one can be certain. It is also conceivable that Arvanitic lost the 'l' along with its Albanian relatives but regained it under the influence of Greek. From PIE *glogh-ya to gluha to guha and back again to gluha as a result of the influence of glóssa. The possible scenarios are endless. As for the Illyrian controversy, the problem with all the palaeo-Balkan languages is that they left behind almost no records. We know too little about them to know for sure whether any modern languages descend from them, especially when these modern languages have scant written records themselves.--Theathenae 14:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae your statement is rubbish and it proves you know nothing about the Albanian language. Look here, [3], the edit you did, it's incorrect, and very misleading for readers who still doesn't have knowledge on Albanian language. The Albanian language represents the only survival language of its own branch in the Indo-European languages, you intend without awareness of the Albanian language to make other's to deem otherwise that Toska and Ghega are Ausbausprache, like Danish and Norwegian, that's inaccurate, when infact the Toska and Ghega are two principal dialects of Albanian language. The Toska is not a dialect of Arvanitic, the Arvanitic language is a variety of Toska. The Arberesh language spoken in Italy belongs also to the Tosk Albanian subgroup. You have been very incorrect with the article Arvanitic language, [4], I'm just waiting for someone to review what you have been doing. Finally, I want to say that the two words mentioned above, of the great safety, they are of Greek origin, however the Arvanitic words are not borrowed directly from Greek, the forms indicate that, the forms are akin to Toska and Ghega much more then to the Greek form. However, I never used this as an argument that Albanian language have Illyrian origin. The words may have been borrowed from Greek somewhere between 1000- 1500 century, we have many Greek words in the Albanian language from that time, so with with all well meaning don't disort the things I say. --Albanau 14:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All modern linguists without a pan-Albanian agenda like you would call Arvanitic a distinct language, not a dialect of Tosk, even if they are closely related. I did not say Gheg and Tosk had an Ausbau relationship; they are very different languages. "An Ausbausprache (also called an ausbau language) is a language which has a standard spelling, a standard grammar and a relatively wide and clear vocabulary (and is thus almost identical with a standard language). Two language forms that allow easy mutual communication can nevertheless be regarded as two different languages if they are each an Ausbausprache according to this definition." Arvanitic is of course much closer to Tosk than Gheg, but they still have only about 50% mutual intelligibility. Perhaps Arvanitic and Tosk are not even close enough to be in an Ausbau relationship in the same way that Serbian and Croatian or Hindi and Urdu are. But Arvanitic does have its own alphabet, orthography and grammar, as well as a very distinct and heavily Greek vocabulary. And the Arvanites themselves have a Greek national identity that is completely distinct from the Albanians. National identity alone is enough to separate the otherwise almost identical Serbian and Croatian languages, which are much closer to each other than Arvanitic and Tosk. These are scientific facts. You can choose to ignore them, but they are not open to debate.--Theathenae 14:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One more thing. Gheg and Tosk are considered dialects of the same Albanian language only because their speakers choose to belong to the same nation, not because Gheg and Tosk are actually mutually intelligible or particularly similar in a purely objective linguistic sense. That's fine, but don't project that concept onto peoples like the Arvanites who do not belong to the Albanian nation. The use of the reductive term dialect for Arvanitic in this context is entirely arbitrary and political, not to mention unscientific..--Theathenae 15:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What a incredibly boneheaded remark, you actually mean that Tosk and Gheg are Ausbausprache, like Danish and Norwegian, that's so inaccurate. I can't find any logical reasoning in support of your thesis, and once again you are distorting science. Presumably you have been reading an older encyclopedia, a few older encyclopedia's mention the Tosk and Gheg as two distinct languages but this is spurious logic at its worst. This theory have been rejected by linguistics who have studied Albanian dialectology (unlike you), they have come to the conclusion that Tosk and Geg are the two principal dialects of the Albanian language. It is relevant to mention that difference between the dialects of the Albanian language are much, much bigger then other dialects of other European languages. In concern to the Arvanitic language spoken by the Arvanites people in Greece and the Arberesh language spoken by the Arberesh people in Italy, the two languages are approved to be a variety of Tosk Albanian by linguistics, [5], [6]. Although under influence of foreign lingo the Arvanitic language and the Arberesh language have clearly preserved it's independence that is obviously Tosk Albanian. If I were you I wouldent talk that much about mutual intelligibility since you have no idea what you're talking about. The edit you made on the Arvanites, Arvanitic language and the Albanian language clearly indicate your 'point of view'. [7], [8], [9], [10]. In swedish Wikipedia you're edit where you make stupid claim they have been erased, and you been temporary banned many time. You account is Arvanítis, here [11] in the swedish article Arvanítis you mention them just 'a people in Greece', the admins in Swe Wiki have review what you have been doing. What do you exact mean with 'a people', isin't that confusing and wouldent be more accurate if you tell the truth that they are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry who settled Greece? --Albanau 19:52, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gheg and Tosk, mostly mutually intelligible?

Albanau has edited a sentence in the article that described Gheg and Tosk as having limited mutual intelligibility. This description had existed since 26 February 2002.[12] He has changed it to "mostly mutually intelligible", which is clearly untrue. The Ethnologue entry for Albania describes Tosk as "reported to be inherently unintelligible with Gheg Albanian".[13] Albanau's brand of deliberate falsification does not belong on Wikipedia.--Theathenae 15:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Albanians have today a lower literacy rates, because, the communist in Albania have reduced the lack of literacy dramaticly. Today one who speak grammatically correct Tosk Albanian can understand a Geg speaker who speak grammatically correct Geg and vise versa, and can also comprehend the written dialect. While one who speak vulgar Tosk and another who speak vulgar Geg can't understand each other so well or not at all. Since people in Albania and in other parts in the Balkans, both Tosk-speakers and Geg-speakers, are learning the Albanian unit language the difference between Tosk and Geg are rapidly disappearing and due to the movements. Therefore Tosk and Geg have no longer limited mutual intelligibility, now, Tosk and Geg is mostly mutually intelligible. Albanau 20:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is from Britannica: Although there are variations even within these two dialects, all Albanians can understand one another with no difficulty. --Albanau 20:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Albanau is too far from the truth when he says Tosk and Gheg are somewhat mutually intelligible. Sometimes, Albanian is intelligible to me, and I'm Romanian. Decius 21:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wrong, you are now distorting my words. I said that Arvanítika is somewhat mutually intelligible with Tosk Albanian and also to a much lesser degree with Gheg Albanian since the dialect is composed of a mixture of Albanian and Greek words. Albanau 21:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, but You just said "Tosk and Geg is mostly mutually intelligible." Decius 21:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are distorting your own words maybe. Decius 21:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now, observe how astounding Decius is, as he translates an Albanian sentence: Gjuha Shqipe (shkurt Shqip ose Shqipja) eshte nja gjuha qe flitet nga rreth gjashte milione banore te Balkanit, te quajtur Shqiptare.----The Shqip language (short form: Shqip or Shqipja) is a language spoken by about six million inhabitants of the Balkans, called Shqiptare. If I made a mistake, it wasn't a big one probably. Decius 21:52, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where Descius, can you give any vaild prove that I said Tosk and Gheg are somewhat mutually intelligible, any link?

If you are a master of the English language is simple to translate that with the help of a English- Albanian lexicon. --Albanau 22:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't need a link. Look a few inches up on this page in front of your face. You say "now, Tosk and Geg is mostly mutually intelligible". Decius 22:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well it is mostly mutually intelligible.

You have been just distorting my words but is not your fault, you didin't read carefully. Look at the bottom of this page, here:

I'm just trying to show that it is not unlikely that Tosk and Geg and Arvanitic can often be mutually intelligible. Decius 22:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It all depends on the listener :P, actually i understand Tosk Albanian very well when I listen to it carefully, they are sligty different to my ears. Albanau 22:26, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Catalan and Spanish and Portuguese can also often be mutually intelligible, to a much greater extent than Arvanitic and Albanian. But they are still separate languages.--Theathenae 22:30, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae is that your 'point of view'? --Albanau 22:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian r's

In the audio examples provided, Albanian r definitely sounds like an English alveolar approximant, not a Spanish alveolar flap as claimed in the article. Can anyone confirm this? No audio is provided for rr to establish whether it is in fact an alveolar trill or merely a flap.--Theathenae 12:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please stick to consensus standards

We can't have separate table formats for individual language articles, so if you want to change the standard and use another table, you need to discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages first. I really doubt you'll be able to make any major overhauls, though, since the standard has been around for quite a while and has as of yet not seen any waning support from the participants of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sample of Arbëríshte

Does anybody think that the link with a sample of Arbëríshte here, the language of the Arvanites should be included with the samples of Arbëreshë, Tosk and Gheg? It is closely related to them and in might be interesting if Wikipedia readers would like to compare them. REX 12:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Avoiding the Arvanites revert war

Theathenae, REX, Albanau, et al.: Could we please, I beg you, not let the revert war from Arvanites and the vitriol from Talk:Arvanites spill onto this page?

Let's agree that the issue of Arvanitic is at best secondary on this page. The current version seems to split the difference between dialect and language by placing the phrase "Languages sharing a common origin..." in a section called "Dialects". One nod to REX, one to Theathenae. I don't think any 'innocents' reaching this page will be scarred by this combined usage.

The comparative advantage of this page relative to already established authoritative encyclopedias, such as Enc. Britannica, is, besides the free accessibility, the contribution of native speakers and native - or otherwise highly qualified - linguists. After all, what is more likely: that, say, a dispassionate Englishman visiting this page will care more about the linguistic features of modern standard Albanian, or that he will seek here the subtleties of Arvanitic and its relation to Tosk Albanian (esp. given that these are discussed to death on another, dedicated page)?

As a native speaker of Albanian with a strong interest in languages and linguistics, I could contribute a fair bit of technical information about the Albanian language, but I won't bother doing so on a page that has degenerated into chaos. You may remember another user, Dori, who made some decent contributions, but in the end pulled out from Wikipedia altogether. I think that was a pity, but not entirely unjustified. Apapa 06:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hoping that the dialect/language compromise above resolves the 'Arvanitic' tension, I would also hope we can sort out the intelligibility question between Tosk and Geg. (Just these two, say anything you want or nothing at all about the intelligibility of Arberesh and Arvanitic with Tosk/Geg, I am almost completely disinterested in those.) Anyone who has grown up in Albania knows that the two dialects are mutually intelligible, with the exception of some isolated, extreme forms. The Republic of Albania, though fragmented by its geography, is too small to have or sustain such significant splits, let alone any "inherent" ones. Even the sealing of the borders between Yugoslavia and Albania has not produced such a wall of mutual unintelligibility. Kosovars and southern, Tosk-speaking Albanians certainly find each-other's accents very "heavy", but it's most unusual for them to find each-other unintelligible.

Yes, this does mean that Ethnologue is wrong on this point. If you read the preceding link, this error is perfectly understandable: I gather that their main focus is not linguistic research per se, but "primarily to provide the speakers with native language biblical texts." Furthermore, their statement does not even purport to be authoritative: "Reported to be inherently unintelligible with Gheg Albanian" (emphasis mine.) Their proportions for Geg/Tosk speakers in Rep. of Alb., 300K vs 2.9mill, are also completely off the mark. The split, like the geographic one, is a lot more balanced.

The current, full, online version of Enc. Brit. puts it best: "Gheg and Tosk have been diverging for at least a millennium, and their less extreme forms are mutually intelligible."

So, in the interest of accuracy, I will try and act on the above, very gingerly and trying not to step on anyone's toes, least of all on those of our non-Albanian neighbors. I hope you will let this be, so we can move on to more interesting features. Apapa 06:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More on Geg/Tosk intelligibility

I am copying here, at Matia's request, some comments from my Talk page. Apapa 20:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Good evening Apapa. I liked the data you provided about the language changes in the '70s. I've read somewhere that Shqipe is not 100% Tosk but also has some Gheg elements (10% perhaps). If you know more about this, please add the relevant information.

Let me also say that you may want to consider improving the phrase are mutually intelligible depending on the level of speakers' literacy and proficiency in standard Albanian. In their purest vernacular forms, Gheg and Tosk are inherently unintelligible, rather than replacing it with are mutually intelligible, except in their more extreme forms. MATIA 15:48, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Matia; hi Rex. You are absolutely right, Matia, Standard Albanian is not 100% Tosk but does incorporate elements of Geg, esp. of the literary Geg tradition. (I am not sure how to quantify the proportion of each dialect's contribution.) I think that section can be improved and expanded significantly, which I might attempt to do, if the page proves to be a stable and constructive medium. (I can also establish a grammar page and link to it, along the lines of the Latin grammar page.)

It is true, btw., that a certain measure of linguistic 'violence' was inflicted upon Geg speakers and their dialect, and that this was in large part due to the fact that the Communist elite, who emerged as winners of the WWII power struggles, were in large part southerners. But it wasn't all arbitrary. Phonetically, and lexically etc., Standard Albanian is closest to the Elbasan variant, which is on the boundary between the two dialects. So, it is very different from many of the southern Tosk regional variants and much closer to Geg than any of them. I think it's a good compromise, but more importantly, it was a natural choice, because this region produced many of the early influential scholars who established the study and teaching of the modern language. Moreover, many writers had already made this choice long before the Congress of 1972 formalized it. Elbasan is, then, to Albanian what Tuscany is to Italian.

As for the intelligibility phrase, I can honestly say that I did think about it long and hard, before altering it. The problem with the phrase is that it's quite concise and specific and therefore leaves hardly any room to maneuver. There are two factual claims there: a) that the mutual intelligibility is dependent on the mediation of Standard Albanian and b) that the 'pure' versions are inherently unintelligible. Now, I personally would not care much whether these points were in fact true or not; one outcome does not please me more than the other, as an Albanian or a student of languages or history etc. It just so happens that the statement is incorrect and I will probably call the attention of the Ethnologue people to it, so they can fix it. a) is easy to see because Standard/Literary Albanian was codified only in the early '70s, and if you go further back in time and pick an average Geg and an avg Tosk, they'd communicate just fine, with the occasional raised eyebrow (and with each probably laughing silently at the other's funny accent). b) this part suffers from this notion of 'inherent unintelligibility' - besides the problem of 'purity', which is thorny because you have regional variants even between Geg and Tosk, yet none of them can be considered to coincide with a 'pure' Geg/Tosk. But, in fact, because the divergence has only been going on for about a thousand years and over a relatively small area, that 'recent' common root and the area of change dictate an inherent intelligibility, which can be occasionally marred or obscured by regional 'flavors', but is far from being obliterated. That's why I felt that the pithy EB formulation of Prof. Hamp, which I paraphrased, was best at conveying this fact - which is evident to Albanians - to foreign readers. I hope I am expressing myself clearly.

In any case, if I get the time to contribute in more detail about the features of each of the dialects (to a separate, linked page and perhaps with transcribed examples of several Geg and Tosk variants from different regions of Albania), the degree of closeness would become apparent, through visual inspection, even to non-Albanians. Apapa 23:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we should copy these comments on Talk:Albanian language, they are interesting, and perhaps other people would like to read them too. I'm guessing that Ethnologue talk about more archaic versions of Tosk and Gheg (perhaps before 1900, or something similar). As for the percentage (90% -10%) I've mentioned it because I hoped you knew more than me about it. Maybe we 'll find something in the long run. MATIA 08:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Matia. Given that the two dialects have been diverging for most of the past one thousand years [although recently increased internal migrations might reverse that trend], I'd say that the further back in time you go, the closer they'd be to each other. I'd also find it a little strange than an organization like Ethnologue, which focuses on creating and disseminating biblical texts in native languages, would focus primarily, or even at all, on archaic versions of such dialects. But then, they provide a very brief statement and don't describe their sources and discovery process, so we can only speculate what they had in mind. Apapa 20:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Apapa, you haven't realised that Theathenae knows more about Albanian than everybody else. If anybody dares question his omniscience, Theathenae will see that he is thrown to the lions. That is why we must accept all his edits as binding upon all us humble mortals. REX 22:05, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae, in light of your revert on this topic, I'd like to ask you again to participate in this discussion before taking unilateral action. A revert war not does not serve our audience well at all. I am trying very hard to explain myself in full before taking any action, and it seems that at least Matia is appreciating such contributions. Don't you think that is more constructive?

As you can see, a fairly constructive discussion has been taking place above on the relative merits and authority of Ethnologue. Won't you please join in? And I ask you again, could we leave aside the issue of Arvanites and the sentiments it seems to inspire, while we discuss this page?

To be clear, both the Tosk and Gheg entries in Ethnologue are wrong on the topic of intelligibility. I outlined the 'why' above. The Gheg page has other glaring errors that further undermine its authority, e.g. the Albanian name of the language is given as 'Shgip', not 'Shqip'. So, I am not altogether sure why you place so much faith on this site, to the disadvantage of all other sources and arguments. Are we really helping Wikipedia if we blindly anchor ourselves to the errors of others?

Furthermore, once you leave out Arvanitic, what are the controversial implications of whether Tosk and Geg are or are not mutually intelligible? Really, I, along with probably most other Albanians, wouldn't really care if in fact the two dialects were inherently unintelligible. For me it's not a loaded issue at all. All it is is a glaring error on Wikipedia that dilutes the worth of this page and hence of any contribution made to it. Now, if I were curious whether some Greek dialect of the north is mut. intel. with one from the Peloponnesus, I'd simply take a 'yes' or 'no' on faith, from any native Greek speaker, because I imagine they can a) easily tell and b) have no reason for misrepresentation. Same thing for Italians and their various dialects and so on... So I am puzzled that you feel so strongly about this, that you are prepared to override any and all other sources or contributors, purely on the basis of your own non-native knowledge (I presume?), your emotions perhaps, and finally one source, the Ethnologue, which does not even purport to be authoritative on the subject, but on the contrary, explicitly qualifies one of its statements as secondhand ["reported to be..."]

I need to know if you are prepared to consider at all the possibility that Ethnologue might be wrong, or whether instead you think this page should be subordinated, w.r.t. this topic, to the Ethnologue and no other source or contribution. Because if it's the latter, then I'd be forced to try and get the Ethnologue people to correct their errors before correcting any such in the Wikipedia, and that's too high an entry barrier for Wiki contributions, in my opinion.

I really do think we can be more cool-headed and constructive about this and am genuinely interested in hearing from you. Thanks. Apapa 22:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, REX. As I say on my page, I am almost more fascinated by 'Wikipedia, the experiment in social interaction', than its content. My first choices for content are still closely edited encyclopedias, with invited contributions, that have earned their authority in the open market. So I am a Wikiskeptic. Nevertheless, I see great potential in Wikipedia and I start with the assumption that those who return repeatedly and spend time on a topic do so out of genuine and constructive interest, whereas vandalism is mostly perpetrated by transients. So, I expect that Theathenae will be interested in a real conversation, one as free of irony and unhelpful emotions as can be had. But in the end, I will refrain from significant contributions until the page appears stable and constructive. Thanks. Apapa 22:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello Apapa, can you please verify that you did this anonymous edit (except in their more extreme forms) that Theathenae changed? Thanks. MATIA 22:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

All I know is that the IP address 62.162.232.22 is from the FYR Macedonia. REX 22:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Matia. That IP is not mine. As a registered user now, I have no reason to make anonymous contributions - the only way I can see that happening is if I made a submission from a 'new' computer and forgot to log in first. As we know from above, though, I did introduce the 'except in their more extreme forms' angle, but in an earlier edit. I also corrected a part of the anon edit which had included the Albanian form of FYROM in the 'official language' table section, and also qualified it with 'parts of FYROM' since it's only official in some localities of FYROM Apapa 23:15, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks :) MATIA 23:31, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Apapa, have your read that section about Gheg and Tosk? Do you have any additional comments about it? MATIA 00:34, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I did read it. Overall, I found it a little too confrontational and felt that, perhaps inadvertently, too much was being made of a rather small and secondary issue. So, I figured a fresh start on the topic might be more productive. But if you have any specific questions related to that section that you want me to address, I will be happy to. Apapa 00:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have made various edits to this article due to the fact that certain entries are inaccurate. To be more specific, Arvanitic and Arbëresh (or as called by the UN Arvanitika Albanian and Arbëreshë Albanian respectively) are classed linguistically as a dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian. This position is endorsed by the UNESCO RED BOOK ON ENDANGERED LANGUAGES: EUROPE (see entries for Arvanitic and Arbëresh respectively). There is no proof that these languages are separate languages as the articles previously stated and Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability) requires that the truth be entered on articles (the truth being that these languages are dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian). If anybody reverts these edits without providing evidence that they were justified in doing so he/she will have commited vandalism and will have violated Wikipedia policy. If anybody chooses to vandalise the article and violate Wikipedia policy they will be reported.
Regards,
REX 23:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] translation from albanian

How would you translate the names of the following organizations:

Lidhja së Blertë Shqiptare
Partia Ardhmeria Shqiptare
Partia Demokracia Paqësore e Shqipërisë
Partia Demokratike Demokracia e Re e Djathte Shqiptare
Partia Demokratike Peza Gjirokaster e Shqiperise
Partia e te Drejtave te Mohuara

??? --Soman 19:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Are these political parties? +MATIA ☎ 23:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. --Soman 00:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] comments

Hi Rex,

A couple comments on the article.

Perhaps Geg & Tosk are only marginally intelligible? Lyovin, for example, reports they are unintelligible.
I would point out that there are longstanding native Albanian communities in Italy and Greece, not just recent immigrant communities as in Sweden. I'm not sure of my history here, but I wouldn't be surprised if Albanians have been in some parts of Italy as long as the Italians!
You don't make it clear that there are Albanian communities in Montenegro, not just in Kosovo, until you discuss Geg.
Your consonant chart is missing ch and xh.
It would be nice to include a phoneme chart for Geg as well. Shouldn't be too hard to come by.
I wouldn't call ë "schwa", but instead a 'mid central vowel' (if that's what it is). The word "schwa" has implications of being unstressed and easily elided, and not necessarily being mid central. I assume Albanian ë can be stressed?

It depends. Originally, it couldn't be stressed, but the currently, in Gheg it cannot be stressed, but it seems that there are some cases in Tosk where it can be stressed. bogdan | ^Talk 23:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, probably best to leave it as schwa then. Might want to explain it's not normally stressed. kwami 01:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I can't play the sound files. I am always suspicious about claims of a language having palatal stops. They're really quite rare. You say they're like Hungarian (which are affricates as often as stops), but also like Czech, and the Czech sounds aren't palatal at all! They're palatalized coronals, quite a different thing. Also, I've always heard that Albanian q and gj were palatalized velars.
Discuss written forms before Hoxha? There were a couple alphabets invented for Albanian; you could link to those.
Case: It doesn't look like Albanian has separate genitive and dative cases. Rather, the genitive appears to be formed from a preposition plus the dative. You may find references that claim there is a genitive, but that doesn't mean much. Many traditional grammars use Latin as a model, and try to force the language into the Latin case system. Can you find examples of words that have distinct genitive and dative cases? If not, I would relegate the genitive to a footnote.

No, there are no distinct forms for Genitive and Dative. See: Balkan linguistic union bogdan | ^Talk 23:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

That's right. I'd forgotten about that. Best to remove it from the table then. kwami 01:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Might want to point out that similar definite suffixes are found throughout the region (at least in Romanian and Bulgarian, I believe) as part of a Sprachbund. Albanian is the most likely source for this areal feature.
How about a chart comparing old Albanian words with other branches of Indo-European? There were some convoluted sound shifts in Albanian, which took it a while to be recognized as an Indo-European language. Just look at the word for 'three'. That would be interesting to talk about.

Hope this helps. kwami 22:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map contains a couple of serious errors in need of correction. Arvanitika is concentrated in southern Greece, well away from the Albanian border, and is not considered a dialect of Albanian by the overwhelming majority of its speakers.--Theathenae 12:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Um Theathenae, this article is not about the Arvanites who are well away from the Albanian border and consider their language seperate from Albanian. It is about inter alia those precious individuals (estimated at about 30,000) who form Shqiptaret of Cameria. They consider their language a dialect of Albanian and Sali Berisha and the UÇK see them as an important footstep for the aim of forming a "Greater Albania". This has nothing to do with the Arvanites (who reject Berisha's claims, they are useless for these purposes). If only the Helsinki Report didn't say that they spoke Arvanitika, life would be so much easier. Sadly though, WP:V steps in and imposes this map. Anyway, Theathenae, I and everyone else have agreed to calling Arvanitika a language in its own right, despite the fact that all sources and the consensus on the talk page require us to do the opposite. In consideration, the least you can do for this enormous favour is to stop being so rigid. The Arvanites are irrelevant here. Why have all references to them been removed? Because it's not about them. It's about the Albanian language. Rex^(talk)

13:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

In that case the word Arvanitika should be removed from the map, and all is good. :)--Theathenae 13:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, read the Helsinki Report. There are people who live in northwestern Greece, who are Arvanites and perceive themselves to be Albanians (ie they believe that Arvanites and Albanians are the same thing). Also, given that the sources (well explained on Talk:Arvanitic language) including Britannica, which says: All of the Albanian dialects spoken in Italian and Greek enclaves are of the Tosk variety and seem to be related most closely to the dialect of Çamëria in the extreme south of Albania. Doesn't this indicate that an Albanian dialect is spoken in Greece. Who speaks it. You assert that the Arvanites in southwestern Greece do not speak an Albanian dialect, therefore that leaves us with the Arvanites of Epirus who have no objection to being called Arvanites. Also, as the Helsinki Report say that they speak Arvanitika, it is accurate. Rex^(talk) 13:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

If you like, "Arvanitika" could be replaced with "Arberishte". As Arvanitika is written in the Greek alphabet, it wouldn't cause confusion. Especially considering that Arvanitika can refer to the speech of both these people. Rex^(talk) 13:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I honestly don't think it can. The Helsinki report says nothing about whether the Shqiptár of Epirus actually identify as Arvanites. It simply slaps the label on them without exploring the possibility that perhaps they are just an extension of the ethnic Albanian population of neighbouring Albania rather than belonging to the distinct group of people that specifically call themselves Arvanites. If they call themselves Shqiptár, why would they call their language Arvanitika? Does it not make more sense that they would call it Shqip? As for whether or not an Albanian dialect is spoken in Greece, I presume more than one is spoken since the influx of the 1990s. ;)--Theathenae 13:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the Helsinki Report doesn't make such provisions. It says that Arvanites are those whose mother tounge in Arvanitika and that there is a 30,000 strong number in northwestern Greece who call themselves in their own language Shqiptar (Albanians). You cannot question sources, you know that WP:V. We are looking for verifiability (of which we have plenty), not truth. Also, the Helsinki Report is no clear on the composition of the Epiriote Shqiptar. Does that number include the Çam for example? Who knows? We'd better play it safe and just assume that the Helsinki authors know something we don't. They aren't just writing off the top of their heads. Anyway, the Albanian designation is in Epirus, not Attica or Evia. Rex^(talk)

13:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

A single source is not enough to promote an idea as the absolute truth. Read Wiki policy.--Theathenae 13:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

And which clause says that? Can you copy-paste please *smirk*? I have explained why that link belongs here. If credible sources say something, who are you to say otherwise? This has nothing to do with the Arberor. It is relevant to the Shqiptar (who speak the same language/dialect as the Arberor). If you can find a source to support you POV, please produce it. Also, I have conceded to that blatant POV push in the title of Arvanitic language in return for a consideration which has not yet become apparent. If you refuse to accept the sources and WP policy I will have to re-initiate the poll to move the Arvanitic language article. You cannot have everything. Bargain? Rex^(talk) 14:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

This isn't about bargains or doing deals, and such an approach would not be looked upon kindly by the arbitrators deciding your fate. This is about the facts. We actually have no sources that define the language of the Shqiptár of Epirus as Arvanitika. In fact, if you look carefully, the report actually calls their language - surprise, surprise! - Shqip. And I quote: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language -with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above. If you want to be technical, find a source that specifically supports your case.--Theathenae 14:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh my, I have read that report time and time again, and I didn't notice that. So sorry. I'll initiate procedures for changing the picture immediatly. Rex^(talk) 14:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. You really are quite a moody boy, aren't you? What sign are you?--Theathenae 14:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed the reference to the Arvanites from the picture. I daren't imagine what bogdan will think (he made to original). Rex^(talk) 16:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

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