Talk:Allegory of the cave
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[edit] About the interpretation
Does the interpretation need corrected on the article? runfishrun221
It sickens me to see intellectual babble that the any reader can`t comprehend what is spewed out. People need to remember to write to an US 8th grade level and cutout the intellectual crap. The cave is an analogy for waking up out of the slumber you think life is. Its nothing more or less. h0riz0n
I know Plato was a great admirer of Socrates... is the "freed caveman" supposed to represent Socrates or someone like him? -- ヤギ
the formatting of the article is confusing.. I think there was an attempt at quoting, but it results in confusion --67.70.166.57 14:42, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The freed caveman is the metophor for humanity of the enlightened mind. What I fail understand is there is no mention of evil or bad. To know good you must know evil. With out the understanding of the Ying you can not truly understand the Yang.
- The reason you fail to understand it, is because you are dwelling within the circle. Plato is looking at the circle from the outside... h0riz0n 12:07 1 Mar 2006
- I'm not sure that Plato would agree with you on the importance of Zoroastrian dualism (or Tao dualism). The unfortunate habit of categorizing things in terms of diametricly opposed terminal points (good and evil, riches and poverty, health and sickness, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan, ect) is certainly not the only way of categorizing and understanding the continuum of things that exist. We can certainly raise ourselves above naive realism to the Platonic idealism of forms without resorting to any type of dualism. mydogategodshat 00:13, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but what is the illustration illustrating? A man seeing his own blurred shadow in a cave? That isn't what the parable is about at all. The article should either be graced by an illustration of the actual situation, or with no image at all. 08:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, we really need a better image representing the concept. The one we have now really does a bad job of depicting the whole situation. I dont, however, know where to find a better image. Christopher 19:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The first comment stating that everything should be written at an eighth grade level is true only if you have in mind an audience of simpletons and those who refuse to engage in complex thought. Further, Plato was trying to do much more than tell some idiotic story about "waking up." Simplicitly is a desirable characteristic only when the subject is appropriately simplistic. This is not the case in _The Republic_. Prufrockslovesong 05:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC) LH
I added an additional and more simplistic image that most people should "get." H0riz0n 14:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The allegory here I have found is lacking too many variables which make it a worth while collection to philosophical literature. For example, after the one individual comes back from seeing the light and decides to free his friends what then would become of them there after. It brings interest because if they were unlocked and freed would they then be able to re-lock themselves? And also, where would the conception of murder have come in. I do not find this to be a very good piece of literature and find myself more, and more losing intrigue in its purpose. Any ideas as to how to maybe make better sense of this. (The Mule 04:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC))
After they stone him his friends go back to watching the shadows. The locks are metaphors not "real" locks. Silly :p H0riz0n 14:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
By freeing other people, the initial freed man will continue his work until his eventual death. Here in the Republic, PLato would use Socrates' life work as an example when Socrates tried to break the bonds of the unwise and show them the light of wisdom (oddly enough, being wise to Socrates is knowing that you are ignorant and any such person who thought they were the wisest in their field, Socrates proved them wrong by questioning them, testing what they thought to be wisdom, in fact, ignorace.) People who believed that their knowlege was inviolatable cast Socrates away until their frustration gave way to murderous retribution that any such person would question their knowledge. Why they refused to be wise of their ignorance is beyond me. Ereaes Talakhan 21:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Who is speaking?
The article should make it clear that "Plato" never speaks directly to the readers in The Republic. It is the character of Socrates, whose relation to the historical figure of Socrates is a matter of scholarly debate.
[edit] Popular Culture
I think that there is one contributor who insists on adding references to popular culture in these articles. He especially likes "The Matrix" movie. I found similar references in the Popper and Einstein articles. They greatly demean Wikipedia. Lestrade 19:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade
- Yes and no...perhaps such simplistic examples might help someone grasp the concept where they otherwise might not. Just an opinion... --Alcalde 19:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I must agree with Alcalde here. They would help some people who do not quite grasp it, to grasp it. Also on this note I think that a reference to Lemony Snickett's The Grim Grottois in order, it would also help explain things. I do not know how to word it... 71.31.233.16 01:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I concur. It helps establish relevance of the concept for people ignorant of it. It serves to educate readers which is the purpose of an encyclopedia. It should stay. --207.215.78.126 06:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
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The reference in the Film section about The Truman Show is especially dumb. It says nothing. [User:Lestrade|Lestrade]] 02:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
[edit] Ayn Rand
I've removed this text:
The novel, Anthem by Ayn Rand, also features a main character who leaves a tightly controlled but technologically backward society to learn that the world used to be more scientifically advanced. He discovers a twentieth century lightbulb that takes the place of the sun in Plato's allegory.
Ayn Rand disagreed strongly with Plato, and I've never heard anywhere that the discovery of the lightbulb was supposed to parallel Plato's allegory. LaszloWalrus 09:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spoiler warning?
Why does this article contain a "spoiler warning"? It's an allegory! It isn't entertainment, and there isn't any real ending. It doesn't even have a plot. Because it is meant to illustrate a point or idea, and not for anything else, what is given away?
JA: It was partly, but not entirely, tongue-in-cheek. The fact is that the contributor elected to present the allegory in a digested version of its original narrative form, and so it is appropriate to respect the time-honored protocols of storytelling. The story does have a punchline, and not everybody seems to be aware of that, so the spoiler warning affords them the opportunity to go off and read the original for themselves before having somebody else tell them what it supposedly says. Jon Awbrey 02:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vulvadentata
Is there a reason this feminist interpretation offered by Michael Roth has been deleted?
JA: NB. Please sign and date discussion items with a ~~~~ at the end.
JA: I started out trying to copyedit this contribution on the assumption that it was a bona fide addition to the article, but it turned out to be: (1) too poorly sourced to regard as reputable, (2) something in the nature of an attempt to use WP as a soapbox for airing personal grievances. All of this goes against fundamental principles of what WP is and is not. Jon Awbrey 02:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
JA you can contact mtroth@lensgrinder.org for the source, he claims it's a feminist interpretation, from luce irigay.
would these sources satisfy ou JA from deleting my article?
Results 1 - 10 of about 16 for luce irigaray vulva dentata. (0.63 seconds) Leslie Thornton See also Luce Irigaray, This Sex Which is not One, and "When Our Lips Speak Together." The mythical image of the vagina dentata, a toothed and talking ... www.sensesofcinema.com/ contents/directors/02/thornton.html - 92k - Cached - Similar pages
Joanna Frueh - Vaginal Aesthetics - Hypatia 18:4 In Sanskrit, yoni means vulva and womb, and the yoni is the symbol through ... Philosopher and psychoanalyst Luce Irigaray (1985) laments woman's lack of ... muse.jhu.edu/journals/hypatia/v018/18.4frueh.html - Similar pages
[PDF] 9-18.4 Frueh (137-58) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat and terrible vagina dentata—as I am by psychoanalytic theory. ... Philosopher and psychoanalyst Luce Irigaray (1985) laments woman’s lack of ... muse.jhu.edu/journals/hypatia/v018/18.4frueh.pdf - Similar pages
Luce Irigaray: One Saucy Cup of Tea Luce Irigaray : One Saucy Cup of Tea. matt Gilboy . ... meaningful words , would be to pull brandish the vagina dentata and start shining the teeth . ... www.angelfire.com/amiga/princematthew/irigaray.htm - 25k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Palimpszeszt 24. szám Thus, in a patriarchal paradox, the iconic vagina dentata seems to devour itself, ... Irigaray, Luce. Speculum de l’autre femme. Paris: Minuit, 1974. ... magyar-irodalom.elte.hu/palimpszeszt/24_szam/09.html - 78k - Cached - Similar pages
Play It Again, Sam "d0e5430" The penis dons the vagina via the vulva and wears the womb as a headdress. ... Irigaray, Luce. Speculum of the Other Woman. Translated by Gillian C. Gill. ... content.cdlib.org:8088/xtf/view?docId=ft1j49n6d3& chunk.id=d0e5430&doc.view=print - 422k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] CFreader_fonts_zorah2B File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat (Luce Irigaray) or to say it with the brilliant lacanian ... led) into the vulva of the fema-. le. The female stores the sperm. in a special skin bag. Later ... www.basis-wien.at/avdt/pdf/128/00068992.pdf - Similar pages
[PDF] ABSTRACT Title of Dissertation: CULTURAL INTERVENTION, ACTIVIST ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat bifurcated mind/body as well; The —sexual difference“ school (the thinking of Luce Irigaray, Helene. Cixous, Gayatri Spivak, Jane Gallop, Moira Gatens, ... https://drum.umd.edu/dspace/ bitstream/1903/168/1/dissertation.pdf - Similar pages
Mueller Science - Spezialitaeten: Literatur: Menschenbilder II - [ Translate this page ] Luce Irigaray: Speculum de l'autre femme. Paris: Éditions de Minuit 1974; dt.: Speculum. ... Sonja B. Ross: Die vagina dentata in Mythos und Erzählung. ... www.muellerscience.com/SPEZIALITAETEN/Varia/ Staats_Ges_Wirtsch_Menschenbilder/LiteraturMenschenbilderII.htm - 235k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] TESI DOTTORALE CORPO PUBBLICO File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat riconosce più tardi molta critica femminista (cfr Luce Irigaray) ... other hand the Sphinx, preying mantis, vagina dentata, and other such ... www.tdx.cesca.es/TESIS_UB/AVAILABLE/ TDX-0707105-103020//TESI_VTINTERRI.pdf - Similar pages
JA: The theme is a rather familiar one from all of those literatures that are anaclitic on psychoanalysis, but that is not what the text in question was about. Plus, the text was undermined by many personal allusions that are totally out of keeping with WP policies. Jon Awbrey 14:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
MJ: the statement "not what the text in question was about" is begging the question since Roth clearly states a feminist interpretation of the text is about "vulva dentata" , the cave symbolizes the vagina.
"as for personal allusions" how about this brief statement: "Michael Theodore Roth offers a feminist interpretation of the symbolism: "vulva dentata" which means the vagina that bites with teeth. Plato's cave symbolizes the human vagina, and the prisoner who escapes symbolizes the penis as it withdraws from sexual intercourse, and hence, sexist, gendered value judgments about female oppression." Since vulva dentata is a published feminist interpretation of the symbols i would appreciate you not delete it.
JA: WP is grounded research. Statements can be grounded in cited sources or in common sense. The interpretation of Plato's cave allegory that you offer is grounded in neither. Thus it constitutes research that originates with an unpublished source and cannot be verified by independent means. Jon Awbrey 03:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
JA: here is some cited sources, michael roth, mtroth@lensgrinder.org,
muse.jhu.edu/journals/mln/v117/117.1garofalo.html "the quarry is a symbolic representation of the vagina dentata. In Book VII of Plato's Republic, Socrates evokes the image of a cave in which people sit ..."
magyar-irodalom.elte.hu/palimpszeszt/24_szam/09.html - Thus, in a patriarchal paradox, the iconic vagina dentata seems to devour itself, ... Plato. “The Allegory of the Cave” The Republic, Book VII. Available: ...
www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/ archives/feb03_p24.html - 176k - Vagina Dentata: "Toothed vagina,"the classic symbol of men's fear of sex, expresseng the ... As in the Allegory of the Cave from Plato's Republic? ...
www.slayage.tv/essays/slayage13_14/Slayage_4.1-2.pdf "The vampire’s phallic, oral vagina dentata make her a literal man-eater: she engulfs, ... potent of philosophical metaphors: Plato’s metaphor of the cave. ..."
"Thus it constitutes research that originates with an unpublished source and cannot be verified by independent means." is obviously wrong.
JA: There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about what it takes to support an interpretation of a text with citations from reputable sources in a way that bears on the text itself. Please review WP:VERIFY, WP:NOR, and WP:CITE for WP policy and general advice on these matters. Making up a list of online free-associations to the word "cave" simply does not support the assertions in question. This sort of data may say something about the psyches of the people who generated it, but I don't see the slightest hint of argument that it has anything to do with Plato. Jon Awbrey 04:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Michael ROth who taught philosophy at the University of Illinois claims vagina dentata "support an interpretation of a text in a way that bears on the text itself." whether you agree this claim shouldn't be the reason to delete it. he said to this to Wengert himself, and i'm sure he'll tell you the same.
he claims it's clearly spelled out in one essay by luce irigay, when this was brought to Wenger'ts attention. he didn't give a page number and book reference as it was an verbal discussion. still, if i can find where in luce irigay this is spelled out, will you allow me to post it and not delete it? if you intend to delete it even if i can find the reference in luce irigay then i won't bother to try finding it.
[edit] Cavernous Trivia
JA: I am removing the long list of trivia to the talk page for examination of their reasons for being included in the article on Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The simple fact that somebody uses the word "cave" in a story, song, film, computer game, or wot not, is not sufficient reason to accord it mention here. If there is something about that particular mention that throws a new light into Plato's Cave, then it needs to be articulated, argued, analyzed, and then evaluated for the bearing of that articulation on the main article, not just alluded to in passing like some piece of cocktail party chit-chat. Jon Awbrey 03:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Artistic and literary spelunkers
Should we perhaps add in theoretical ones too? Meaning writers in philosophy, social theory, etc. that make extensive use of the cave allegory or base most of their argument on it? Latour's Politics of Nature comes to mind. Tparadis 03:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Literature
- In Delmore Schwartz's poem "In the Naked Bed, in Plato's Cave" it is used to suggestively parallel the narrator's experience.
- In Philip Pullman's novel The Amber Spyglass (2000), Mary Malone has a computer called "the Cave" which always tells the truth.
- José Saramago concludes his novel The Cave (2001) with a version of Plato's allegory of the cave which is recognized as such by the characters within the novel.
- Chuck Palahniuk describes and refers back to Plato's allegory of the cave several times in the closing chapters of his novel Diary (2003).
- There is an illustrated interpretation of Plato's allegory of the cave in the graphic novel Blankets (2003), by Craig Thompson.
- There is slight representation of Plato's allegory of the cave in The Tale of Despereaux (2003) by Kate DiCamillo between characters Despereaux and Roscuro.
- H.G. Wells' short story, "The Country of the Blind" is a striking representation of Plato's Cave.
- C.S. Lewis' story The Last Battle (1956), from his Chronicles of Narnia series, Digory explained near the end how the places where they were and the places where they were going were like home (Narnia or England), but more real. At one point he muttered, "It's all in Plato, all in Plato; bless me, what do they teach them at these schools!"
- The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny posits that our Earth is just a shadow cast by the "one true world" of Amber. Members of the royal family of Amber, having walked the symbol of ultimate order called "The Pattern", have the ability to walk through different universes as they see fit. It is implied that knowledge of a higher level of reality gives them this ability in a similar way that those who have been outside the cave in Plato's allegory can walk back into the cave and know that the shadows on the wall are not reality but illusions of reality.
- Sophie's World, a novel by Jostein Gaarder explains the Myth of the Cave in a philosophy lesson delivered from Alberto to Sophie.
[edit] Music
- Pere Ubu's 1974 debut single includes the song "Heart of Darkness", which includes the lyric, "Maybe I'm nothing but a shadow on the wall".
- Rush's album "2112" (1976) was inspired by the novel Anthem by Ayn Rand which in turn can be seen as a science fiction version of Plato's allegory of the cave.
- The allegory of the cave is mentioned in the They Might Be Giants song, "No One Knows My Plan".
- Plato's allegory of the cave is referenced in the Jack Johnson song, "Inaudible Melodies".
- John Lennon's song "Watching the Wheels" includes the lines "I tell them that I'm doing fine, watching shadows on the wall".
- Blind Melon's song "Seed to a Tree" includes hints of leaving the cave for the outside world.
- Jakatta song 'One Fine Day' contains the lyrics "caught between the sunlight and the cave, i must choose"
[edit] Film
- This allegory is present in Bernardo Bertolucci's The Conformist (1970).
- The premise of the film Dark City is also very similar to the cave allegory.
- The Truman Show is said to have many similarities to Plato's allegory of the cave.
- The allegory is alluded to by the title of The Shadows in the Cave, the third part of Adam Curtis's documentary series The Power of Nightmares
[edit] Software
- Tailsteak has produced an internet web series called "The Sixth TV" that is a direct retelling of the allegory.
[edit] Uniquely our eyes behold
What I interpret is so simple the cave (underlying ark=life) is earth the walls like the jaded wall are dimensional+ propagandas blindness, the shadows are how we mold everything, the freed prisoner (appropriate DNA appropriate time) not only identified also identifying everything clarifying how they were being blinded from the truth by the tax collector (like present day) like (He’s us) who points out something more enlightening than the traditional routine. Most indeed there would be havoc when the mass population realizes they have been seriously mislead. This also contributes to our present day.Kisida 07:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture Removal
I deleted the pic in the article. It's not at all a reflection of the cave; it has only one person (as opposed to a crowd), who is standing (not chained) at the mouth of the cave (not deep inside) watching his own shadow (not that of puppets) as cast by the outside light (not an internal flame). Korossyl 18:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Editing
Can someone, who has knowledge of Plato and this work, edit this article so that it actually makes sense? Sorry to be blunt but the grammar is atrocious. I am trying to read the interpretation and it makes no sense because of these errors. CHurst5841 14:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the grammar is reasonable enough. Any particular problems? SirGuyFawkes 01:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Particular problem--the language of the entire article reads like a Philosophy essay, and not at all like an encyclopedia entry, especially the part about interpretation. Example: "In the simplest sense, Plato is encouraging us to wake up to the truth of reality about us." 1. There may or may not be a 'truth of reality' around us, and the article is telling us straight out that there is, which seems pretty dangerous coming from an encyclopedia article that's supposed to have a fairly objective stance. 2. It sounds kind of pompous. This could be a personal issue though, so I've left the article as is. 24.86.210.200 10:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
