Talk:Almanach de Gotha
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This article is rather too much of a plug for the new Almanach de Gotha published in London. I have added a qualifying statement and a link to a review of the Gotha, but the article probably needs some more tweaking. Donald Renouf, 15.12 pm 19 July 2005 (BST)
Donald is correct that the new Gotha is spoof. We should mention probably that the old Gotha was quite a racist enterprise, concerned with mediatizied German families mostly. Where were the Girays? Where were the Bagrations? While they deserved a prominent place in the first section, they were denied a place in any section, because the Gotha editors didn't consider them European enough. --Ghirla | talk 00:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- You know that, I know that, and you could mention it, but can you find a creditable source to support it? Giano | talk 23:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Imperialcollegeofcountsandprinces etc
I've reverted this ext link. Anyone operating out of a Teddington PO Box no. can't be formally instituted. There are lots of spurious names amongst the real names. This looks like something similar to an Albany scam. Ian Cairns 22:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Grand inaccuracy
The Almanach recorded all births. Until 1918, any aristocrat wishing to marry, and for their progeny to carry their title had to marry a woman of similar rank.
This is simply not true at all. British aristocrats, for instance, have never had any such restriction, nor, so far as I am aware, did either French or Spanish aristocrats. For mere aristocracy, such a rule is, so far as I am aware, almost entirely German. Even for royal families, this seems inaccurate. There was certainly never such a rule in Britain - the rule instead was that the monarch had to approve all marriages, a rule which came about in 1774 after George III's brothers married below their station. We should not act as though a predominantly German quirk (the morganatic marriage) was a universal trait of aristocracy. john k 04:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
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- I think the article does mention that : "....in Italy at least, where there has always been a slightly cavalier approach to the conventions. In England this has never been a problem as the British aristocracy have always married (if necessary) for money rather than breeding. In the 19th century many of England's duchesses were the daughters of American magnates: others were actresses selected largely on the basis of their physical charms". I'm not sure about Spanish nobility's rules but thay are mostly very grand and well bred indeed compared to the British aristocracy, as are the Italian aristos who seem to impose their own unspoken rules on such matters. Why don't you edit to make clear if you are unhappy with it Giano | talk 06:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Gotha and Coburg
Er, In 1763 Gotha was not a part of the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, but of the Duchy of, well, Saxe-Gotha(-Altenburg). It only went to Coburg in 1826. What's the story here? john k 03:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- This is sort of complicated. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm familiar with that, but I believe that Duke Friedrich III was Duke of Saxe-Gotha, not of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. I'm going to change it. john k 12:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] an extract
Mikhail Katin-Jartsev (Russia, Moscow)
The Gotha almanac and Russian Empire
"One doesn't need to introduce this edition to the genealogists. Actually, this series of reference books have already long time ago gained recognition and could be considered to be the most well-known in the world.
The first volume of the calendar (as it used then to be called) with dates on the ruling dynasties came out in a saxonian town Gotha in 1763, but genealogical tables appeared in it only in year 1765. Family of publishers called Perthes owned the publishing house since 1785 yet for 5 generations, winning successfully competence with all concurrents. In the passed time they increased their incomes, their building also became bigger.
To the brown (afterwards it became dark red) Calendar of ruling dynasties in 1828 was added dark green volume with counts, in 1848 the dark blue one with barons, in 1900 the light blue with old nobility and in 1907 the light green with granted nobility.
Naturally, noble families from Russian Empire found their place in the European edition. In the second half of the 19th c. these were mainly baronial families from Baltic Provinces (Estonia, Livonia, Curonia and the isle of Oesel), and mostly the ones, which had branches who either stayed in Germany, or moved there in 16-18th c. Seldom genealogies of the princes of Rurik descent were made with mistakes, spouse surnames and geographical names were distorted.
In the beginning of this century came out articles on some polish families, - princes and counts,- who lived on the territory of Russian Empire.
Having been fully a private enterprise, the "Gotha" was compiled in a close collaboration with the Nobility archive in Vienna, Heraldry offices of Prussia, Bavaria and others. The editorial board has also every year sent proofs to Russia for making additions and corrections. Once the Empress Alexandra Fedorowna (wife of Nicholas II) has noticed that in the article on Russia the ruling dynasty was called "Romanow-Holstein-Gottorp". She couldn't stand the name, which reminded to readers German blood in Russian Tsars. At first she even prohibited to import the "Gothas", until the name changes. But then one has explained to her that it is no sense to make a scandal with the most strict and legitimist reference book, and historically correct name remained.
One could say, that with appearance of Vasily Arseniev in Germany a new stage of publication of Russian families was started. He emigrated from Soviet Russia to Koenigsberg in 1933, and took wit him his rich genealogical materials. They were not only very detailed and precise, but included also unique data on the family members who stayed in Russia. For example, the present chairman of Russian Nobility League prince A.K.Galitsyn, is mentioned in the volume for year 1940. Arseniev published in "Gotha", among others, articles on princes Gagarin, Trubetskoy, Galitsin (Golitsin), Kurakin, Gorchakov, Kochubei, Engalichev, Masalsky, Dadiani.
Sad to say, but Russian forces have put an end to the long activities of Perthes publishing house and the "Gotha" almanac. In 1945 building was destroyed by bombs, short afterwards the library was confiscated and taken to Russia, where it disappeared. The main editor Rolf v. Kutschenbach, was captured and died from hunger in a POW camp on Onega lake in the North." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shilkanni (talk • contribs) 16:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] General considerations on European nobility
I removed this section from the article, since it strays quite off-topic, and reads like an essay. I didn't really see any need for it. Here's what I removed:
- The almanach recorded all births. Before 1918, almost any member of a continental ruling family (and many members of the continental, and especially German, nobility) wishing for their wife and progeny to carry their title, had to marry a woman of similar rank. The almanach's records were of vital importance to these people. The marriages of many members of the British Royal family would have been considered unequal by the standards of the aristocracy of Europe, including those of George V, George VI, and Charles, Prince of Wales. On the Continent, such marriages would have been morganatic, meaning that the lesser-ranked partner, usually the wife, and any progeny of the union could not inherit the higher-ranked partner's titles. She is usually given a lesser title in compensation.
- In some European families even today breeding is important. Quite recently there was huge disquiet amongst the Habsburgs, Imperial family of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire when the 'would be' heir to the family throne married the daughter of a mere baron, even though the Baron in question was one of the richest men in the world. This requirement of breeding is not limited to former royal and Imperial houses, it is especially prevalent among the noble families of Germany, Austria, Italy and Spain. Johannes, Prince of Thurn and Taxis, a Bavarian aristocrat, married a student he met in a cafe, 33 years his junior, in the 1980s, but she was of equal rank. However, this lust for blue blood is now gradually receding, in Italy at least, where there has always been a slightly cavalier approach to the conventions. In England this has never been a problem as the British aristocracy have always married (if necessary) for money rather than breeding. In the late 19th century many of England's duchesses were the daughters of American magnates: others were actresses selected largely on the basis of their physical charms. Of great importance is the fact that in England and Scotland, unlike on the Continent, only the eldest son of a peer is himself a peer; all his brothers and sisters, and he himself until he inherits, are commoners on the same basis as other citizens. For example, Winston Churchill, though the grandson of a duke, was plain "Mr. Churchill" (until he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth on his own account).
- The Imperial family of Austria used to demand at least 16 quarterings (i.e. every member of the family until the great-great-grandparents had to be entitled to (which in practice required some sort of nobility) a coat of arms, which could then be divided into 16 on a hatchment), before a person could marry into the dynasty. Today they have dropped these standards, likewise the aristocracy of Europe is following, but still the Almanach de Gotha follows their pedigrees; and as ever in spite of the almanach, the headship the Royal Family of the Two Sicilies remains in dispute, as does that of France and innumerable other noble houses; which proves that, to some people, the Almanach de Gotha will always fulfil a need.
BuddingJournalist 06:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
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