Talk:Alternative comedy
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I would like to help clean up this article, but there isn't a clear definition as to what 'alternative comedy' actually is. Could someone who knows explain it either in discussion or even the article?
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[edit] Read the history
If suggest you read through previous versions of this document. Basically, it's been written by two people. The first person wrote the bulk of the article and the second person added in some useful info but hasn't done in a very structured way. You need a Definition heading, and then a History heading. Despite what you say, the definition of alternative comedy is in there: (quote) "In terms of content, alternative comedy tended to rely not on racial or other stereotypes (which was the mainstay of the previous generation The Comedians-style comics), or even standard punchline jokes. Instead it used personal observation and intellectual humour"
[edit] Wikipedia:Notability (comedy)
I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) to help editors in deciding the notability of comedy- and humor-related articles. Please help hammer it into shape. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality of the final section
I wonder about the neutrality of the following.
"Though alternative comics push the envelope and change the form for the better - Demetri Martin and Improv Everywhere come to mind - alternative rooms also have hack comics. While bad club comics often touch on hackneyed topics during their act (relationships, airplanes, the French), these hacks have made once-interesting alternative tropes trite (absurdist wordplay, cultural references to '80's pop, geek culture or hipster trends)."
that is a quote. The phrase Change the form for "the better" is subjective. Demitri Martin has made no changes to the form of standup, everything he's noted for was done before him (playing music while doing comedy (Jack Benny, Henny Youngman, Victor Borge), short one liners (henny youngman, stephen wright, mitch hedberg) use of visual aids and props (need i really list everyone from vaudeville until now who's done that?). That isn't to say he's not a noted alternative standup, but that he personally hasn't changed standup in any noticable way. Also, that any change is debatably "for the better" or "for the worse" is not neutral. ALso, the absurdist wordplay, cultural references to the '80s pop/geek culture, or hipster trends are not clearly defined nor are examples given. Absurdist wordplay, as based on linguistics, plays into the "expectation/deviation" format of comedy joke henri bergson , and has been a constant in comedy since at least Aristophanes (menander used it, plautus was a MASTER of it.) At least, if i read "absurdist wordplay" as the use of non-obvious puns, tricks of verbal tense and semantic logical conflicts within a single thought, and paradoxical or abstruse phrasings (ex. To have sex into a woman) Second, cultural references to the 80s pop culture clearly is a modern in use, as the 80s only ended 16 years ago, but reference to the past/childhood is not new, and it's debatable whether simply referring to another decade's pop culture ever constituted "alternative' comedy. Comedians have referenced out of date, formerly 'cool' but no longer 'cool' trends, things remembered fondly, and fads, for the entire last century. This is neither new, nor alternative. Perhaps, as the assertion has been made that "alternative comedy" demonstrates a generational divide, the 80s references falling out of fashion is an indication of the aging people who lived during the 80s no longer being part of the "young' crowd that creates alt. comedy. So perhaps, 90s cultural references will supersede them. Regardless, it seems ridiculous to consider referencing Transformers as "alternative" comedy, any more than Bill Cosby referencing Howdy Doody would be alternative. Reference comedy has, among comedians, been considered "hackneyed" for a long time, before it being specifically tied to G.I. Joe and Popples.
UPDATE: The section in question has been deleted. The multiple errors in spelling, capitilization and punctuation in the paragraphs above are so voluminous that I have decided to leave the author responsible for correcting them, though I must confess that "rediculous" is a shining example of absurdist wordplay.
[edit] Political satire and socialism?!
The line on political satire associates it with "...a radicalised political awareness rooted in socialism." This seems a very weird thing to say. It seems to me that most political satire is directed at the group in power, whoever they happen to be. And, obviously, comedians can have political beliefs right across the political spectrum. To say political satire is somehow "rooted in socialism" seems incongruous. Can someone explain this? -- FP (talk)(edits) 09:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
While The use of the term alternative began later in america, the claim that alternative comedy started later in America is inaccurate. The definition of "alternative" comedy given here is equally appropriate for the "Rebel Comedians" in America, who began in the '50s and 6'0s doing more character-based, story, surreal, and observational comedy. The use of the word "alternative" to describe the movement, is newer here. It's interesting that some American standups who deride the current American alternative movement are in the tradition of earlier comedians alternative at the time. Saying that America got in on this later is inaccurate: the Compass Players, Second City, Lenny Bruce, Jonathan Winters, Bill Cosby, Nichols and May, Robert Klein, Bob Newhart, Firesign Theater, and a host of others fit the definition of alternative for their time, doing something extremely different from the work of the traditional American standups. Shoot, Ernie Kovacs was dead for a few decades before this "alternative" comedy is said to have begun. At any rate, I'd say there has been some cross-fertilization throughout the post-war period, and a parallel movement away from traditional comedy. See Revel with a Cause and The Rebel Comedians.
