Talk:Altrincham
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Archive 1 (Jan 2006 – Feb 2007) Cheshire debate (Jan 2006 – Jan 2007) |
Contents |
[edit] Talk-page layout (2) (5 March 2007)
I have restored conversations deleted by User:Jhamez84 and replaced them in chronological order (with minor refactoring in an attempt to make sense of things). If nobody objects, I'm going to archive a lot of this fairly shortly, since it refers to an improvement drive which is now over. Well done to everyone involved, especially User:Cosmopolitancats for doing some organisation work. The article is in much better shape than it was before. — mholland 17:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cheshire postal address
Ach, you wouldn't let it lie. This debate is now officially lame, so I'm reluctant to step into it (but I have). Suffice it to say that as boring and as pointless as the claim is, it is easily attributable to all of those folk who give their postal address including 'Cheshire':
- Google search for "Altrincham, Cheshire WA14" = ~78,800 hits
- Google search for "Altrincham WA14" = ~43,500 hits
My brief sampling of some of these found that of local notables, the Trafford PCT, the Rail Station , RFC and FC all use 'Cheshire' in their address, whereas the local MP and the Trafford Council do not use 'Cheshire'. This would seem ample sourcing for the claim that many people still put 'Cheshire' when addressing letters to Altrincham. Best wishes to all — mholland 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- OK, you've found some organisations who are using this obsolete system. But how widespread is this? And why are your comments markedly directed at you (does this mean me?); it is convention to talk about content not contributors.
- The sources used are not adequate or reliable (by which I mean quantifiable) citation. That one poor administrator found that single purpose accounts to circumvent policy was lame, I find disgraceful, particularly when we have rules such as WP:A and WP:RS. Am I breaking any rules? No. Are others over a petty unhelpful unencyclopedic entry? Yes. Unless a quanitifiable reference can be found short, I have no option but to revert these changes per policy. Jhamez84 22:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
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- By "you", I do mean Jhamez84 personally, but please don't take it as a personal attack. I'd have made the same comment if someone had re-added the 'Cheshire postal' sentence without citing a source. As I linked above, this debate is now officially catalogued as a lame edit war. Every extra keypress from now onwards is double-lame, because I've no intention of reverting again over trivialities.
- With respect, I don't think that quantifiability is an issue here: the claim is that "many people" put Cheshire in their address. Not "most", not "a majority of people who live in Altrincham"; just "many". On that ground, the NHS source alone is enough to satisfy the claim. How many people work for the Trafford Primary Care Trust in Altrincham? There must be thousands of business cards with "Altrincham, Cheshire" coming out of Altrincham General Hospital alone.
- Once again, I apologise to Jhamez84: none of this is an assault on your judgment or even your interpretation of policy. It is simply my practice to supply sources for tagged-facts where the claim appears sound, and not to delete the claim. Taking a step backward, who, in the real world, would dispute that there are people in Altrincham who put "Cheshire" in their address? Not I.
- (see also comments on my Talk page)
- — mholland 23:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Notable local residents - improvement action
To improve this article action is required for various entries - including 'notable local residents'
Can I just check the principle which need to operate here?
- I'm assuming "Notable Local Residents" means that a 'local resident' qualifies for a 'notable entry' as defined by Wikipedia and has a Wikipedia article. So unless this individual has an entry nobody should be identified by name just because they exist? Similarly nobody should be included and identified as a notable local resident unless their wikipedia entry has a verified source as to address? Have I got this right?
- I assume any relationship with the area should reflect the current defined geographical identity of the area rather than any historical arrangement. Within Trafford MBC, the southern part is referred to as the Altrincham Area and is defined as including Altrincham; Bowdon, Greater Manchester; Hale; Hale Barns and Timperley which are all recognised to be separate and distinct areas (ie wards) within the south of Trafford MBC. Within Wikipedia there are separate entries for the settlements of Bowdon, Greater Manchester; Hale; Hale Barns and Timperley.
To increase accuracy, to include a reference to an individual should mean that a wikipedia article exists and a citation as to the connection is included in that entry. I suggest that all references within the Altrincham entry to 'notable local residents' ( including celebrities from football, other sports, Coronation Street and other TV programmes who live in these settlements rather than Altrincham) should be identified within these Wikipedia entries rather than Altrincham. If an entry is included in Altrincham because these settlements fall within the Altrincham Area as defined by Trafford MBC then it should clearly identify the precise settlement as well. (Or does this create unnecessary duplication - and the reference should fall only within the settlement in question rather than Altrincham as an area. Comments please.
Do we need a distinction between past residents and current residents? One would make the assumption that somebody living who is listed under 'Notable Local residents' lives in the area at present - which is often not the case (see below). Comments please
[edit] Comments on and suggested amendments to current listings
- Altrincham is identified as Angela Cartwright's birthplace in her wiki entry - but no citation has been provided - although the website clearly identifies this in her bio. Does this qualify for citation purposes?
- Alison Uttley's entry identifies a precise address and should be included in the Bowdon article.
- Helen Allingham's wiki entry does not identify any relationship with any part of the local area. However the local history society states "The family moved to Market Street, Altrincham in 1849 and later to St. John’s Road, Bowdon.". Suggest she stays.
- Ronald Gow was a local resident - as indicated by the bio entry for him on the local History Society website. He also had a relationship with Altrincham Grammar School although that fact and his local resident status does not have a citation in his wiki entry - but one could be made.
- Andrew Flintoff's wiki entry does not identify a place of residence. I'm removing him as an identified individual
- I couldn't see where in the The Stone Roses entry it identified where they live. The entry does indicate that two members attended Altrincham Grammar School for Boys (but no citation for this). This means they were resident somewhere in the catchment area at some point in the past. However, the Timperley entry claims them as residents but provides no citation. Should they be linked to the school in the Education section? I'm leaving them in 'Notable Residents' but clarifying that two of the members attended Altrincham Grammar School for Boys - but citation is required. I can't remember how to do this - can somebody else please indicate this. Any comments?
- The Smiths - I couldn't see any aspect of their wiki article which connected them to Altrincham. Removing the entry. Can be reinstated if citation provided.
- Starsailor entry is very brief/(a stub?) and does not identify any connection to the area. Do they qualify as 'notable' for the purposes of wikipedia? Removing the entry.
Cosmopolitancats 10:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citation - Improvement Action
Removing the need for citation of a verifiable source of evidence improves the quality of this article.
This section identifies all aspects of this article where citation is currently required. Please do not add items which will swell this list. Try and identify citation before posting in the main article. Otherwise identify the suggested additional material here and ask for help with finding an appropriate citation.
If you identify the necessary citation then please remove the item from this list by striking it through rather than deleting it and identifying source here. Cosmopolitancats 10:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citations - "To Do" List
There are two forms of improvement action: identifying where citation is required and the provision of sources to verify information quoted in the article. See Wikipedia: Citing Sources which has status for further information about why/what/when/how.
As at 8th March 2007, the article indicates that citations are required for the following:
- Intro to present Day: "The town has more recently fallen victim to decline with shoppers abandoning the area for the nearby Trafford Centre and a regenerated Manchester city centre.[citation needed] "
- Notable Local residents: (see comments above re inclusion of named individuals and citation) Two members of the The Stone Roses attended Altrincham Grammar School for boys. [citation needed]
- Is citation required for the generalised paragraph about the volume of unnamed personailities/celebrities who live in the area. Comments?
- Do any other aspects require citation - but are missing the citation tag? If editors believe further citation is required please indicate where.
Cosmopolitancats 10:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Notability
For information about the inclusion of people on the Altrincham article on notability grounds, see Wikipedia:Notability (people) as a style guide. Jhamez84 23:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
