Talk:Amda Seyon I of Ethiopia

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Contents 1 Request 2 Quotations 3 Authors 4 Addition of AD to years 5 Good Article nomination on hold

[edit] Request

I'm going to add more information when I find it (I wish I had a copy of the Glorious Victories!), but until then, I want my additions to be copy-edited viciously. Also, does anyone know how to make the References show up in two columns? Those short ibids look bad, but there's really no reason to include all of the reference information again. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 08:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. I don't think it's possible, but I figured out how to get two columns in the reference section, but there's nothing to put in the other column. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

I also have quotations that could be used, but I don't think they're all necessary (I might incorporate some myself):

(Amde Seyon) "Everything I have learnt about you, is it true or not? Have you burnt God's churches, killed Christians and forced those whom you have taken into your ocuntry to embrace your religion which is not the law of Christ, but that of the Devil your father?"(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.16.)

(Sabr ad-Din) "I will not go to your palace. I will not present myself before you, and if you march against me I will not fear you because I have a more numerous army than you and soldiers trained in the handling of the sword horses, the bow, the shield and the spear....If you wish to attack me, come, the road is open, but if you do not come I will myself make war on you!"(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.16.)

(Amde Seyon to his soldiers on 24 Yakatit =March 1-3? Not sure how to convert dates before 1900) "May God give you strength and victory, and may He come to your help!"(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.16.)

(Soldiers to AS after first victories) "We annnounce to you good news, O King; we have defeated your enemy who wished to subjugate you, we have killed the inhabitants of his capital, made prisoners those who remained as well as his women and slaves, and we have spared only those who escaped. We have pillaged his treasures; we have found gold, silver, rich clothing, precious stones and utensils of bronze, iron, glass, and lead in considerable quantity."(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.17.)

(AS's prayer) "Listen to the praer which I address to You from the bottom of my heart and do not reject the demand which I carry on my lips; do not close the doors of Your mercy to me because of my sins, but send Your good angel to guide me in the pursuit of my enemy who rose also against Your sheep and Your holy name." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.17-8.)

(governors and chiefs of royal army to AS) "Now, we can return to our country, because God has placed your enemies beneath your feet. The season of the rains approaches and it is time that we return to our country so that we do not perish in a strange land." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.18).

(AS's response) "Do not repeat in front of me what you have just said, for I will not leave so long as the ungodly Muslims make war on me, who am the King of all the Muslims of Ethiopia, and I have the confidence in the help of God."(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.18.)

(Jamal ad-Din to AS) "I pray you, O King, return to your country; since you have named me governor I will do everything you wish. Besisdes, the country of the Muslims is ruined; spare what remains and leave the country so that the inhabitants can work and pay you their tribute; all the Muslims and I are your servants."(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.18.)

(AS's response) "While I am attacked by wolves and dogs, by the sons of vipers and the children of evil who do not believe in the Son of God, I will never return to my kingdom, and if I leave without going as far as Adal I am no longer the son of my mother; let me no more be called a man, but a woman." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.18.)

(army giving a cry of alarm) "Where is our King? Let him deliver us from the hands of the unbelievers." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.19.)

(again) "Where is the King? Let him save us from the hands of these dogs." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.19.)

(third time, this time he responds) "Where is our King and lord who will snatch us from the hands of the unbelievers, because otherwise we will perish?" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.19.)

(AS) "O Lord Jesus Christ, save me from the hands of these barbarians, You who saved Your servant David from the spear of his enemy." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.19.)

(Zana Yamanu ?=Zene Yemenu? - chief of pages = blattengeta to the sick AS) "The enemy army, more numerous than all your troops, approaches, and we have returned to die with you." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.21.)

(Scouts to AS) "The entire earth cannot contain all these people [muslim army], and if they were to attack, all the people of Ethiopia, great and small, could not resist them." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.21.)

(Mother and wife to AS) "O, lord, how can you go to fight? Are your legs strong enough to allow you to run as before when you were in good health? Can your hand draw the bow or carry the shield and the spear? Have you bthe strength to ride the horse, enfeebled as you are by your illness?" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.21.)

(AS's response) "Must I die as a woman? No, I know how to die as a warrior!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.21.)

(Queen Jan Mengesha to AS's mother) "Hold him back in the name of Christ and do not let him leave!"(Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.22)

(Mother to queen) "If he wishes to go I cannot prevent him. And why should I oppose his will when the unbelievers come to kill him? Shall I hold him so that they strike him in his tent? That idea is far from my thought; let him rather go and die like a man!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.22.)

(AS to both of them) "Go back to your tents and do not follow me!" ((Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.22)

(AS) "Come to my help, God of Moses and of Aaron!" (to the priests) "Intercede for me with God, and do not forget me in your prayers!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.22.)

(AS's prayer) "Most powerful God, merciful God and friend of men, protect Your people, do not let it perish because of its sins, but have pity on it in Your mercy,because You are sweet, clement and just; as for me do with me what You please!" ((Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.22.)

(After soldiers were fleeing at the sight of the Muslim army) "Stay a little to see how I fight, how I know how to die and what God will do today by my hand!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.23.)

(during their flight) "Where are you going? Do you elieve you can today reach your provinces? Have you forgotten, besides, that it is I who raised you, nourished you, and covered you with ornaments of gold and silver and precious clothes!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.23.)

(AS after winning the battle) "Glory to you, O christ, and to Your merciful Father and to the Holy Spirit [Ge'ez? (My guess) - Kibr la'ānta, Kristōs (hōy?), wa la'Ābuhu rūhūrū/mihrawi?, wa la Manfas Qiddūs]. It is You who have given us the victory, who have saved us from the hands of the unbelievers and who have saved me from becoming the prey of the enemy." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.25)

(Queen to AS) "Is it possible that you are still alive, O master King? It seems to me that this is a dream like those which one has during sleep and which disappear in waking. I see you today as in a dream, but I have no certainty that this is reality. Are you really alive, O King, my master?" [note master=husband=ba`āl, but this would be WP:OR] (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.25-6.)

(AS to troops) "Speak to me frankly, without fear, and tell me what you think. Must we send back to our country our women and children, our followers and our servants who give us their care; or must we leave them here and go furhter?" [no one answers] "Speak openly and tell me what seems to you best, most useful and convenient. If your desire is to leave this very day and to return to Ethiopia, we will set forth this morning or this evening by day, or by night; we will set out at once if this pleases you. It is sometimes for the King to follow the council of his generals to follow that of the King; he who acts without taking advice is a madman. Tell me then, I beg you, if you are of the opinion that we alone should go forward, without taking our wives, our children, our followers, our servants and our goods? Have no fear; if you get on to your horses and mules I will have even better ones than yours for myself, and if you have rivers to swim across I will swim also with the strength of God, because He who came to my help in this war and who saved me from the hand of the unbelievers when you were absent can again drag me from danger: it is in Him that I put my confidence and my hope. Tell me what you wish!" (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.26.)

(Hezba Egziabher - a priest of the royal chapel) "It is certain that it is God who delivered you from the hands of the unbelievers and that without His help we would not have been saved. Listen O King, it was not His powerful angesls, Mikael or Gabriel, whom God sent that day to bring us help and deliver us from danger, it was His own Son who descended from Heaveen to save us by His power from the hands of the Muslims." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.27.)

(AS to priest) "It seems to me that if the whole army of Ethiopia found itself in front of these people, even if the latter were without swords, bows, and spears, it could not in the space of six months have defeated them. But God, who can do all and whom no one can resist, annihilated them in an hour; He did not wish to remember my sins because HE is merciful and loves mankind." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.27.)

(general to AS) "You say the unbelievers came armed with their swords to make war on us in these plains; but what would you say of us when we make war on them and pursue them on horseback?" [then discussion which I don't have access to] (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.27.)

(AS to soldiers again) "Tell me what you think. Shall we return to our country by the road we took in coming, or shall we take another? Answer me I beg you because one cannot conclude an affair by silence. Once you had reason to fear when you saw bursting on us that black cloud full of rain which obscured the sky and the earth—I mean that innumerable multitude of unbelievers—but today you have no longer anyhthing to dread since God has shown us His mercy and has saved us from the hands of our enemies." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.27-8)

(Soldiers' response) "You have fought for us night and day and you have delivered us from the unbelievers. Now allow us to return to our country." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.28.)

(AS's response) "It is proper for the animal to return to its pasturage. As for me this is my intention: we will cross the country of Talag [capital] in the kingdom of Adal, we will kill the unbelievers who are still there, and we will return to our country by another road." (Pankhurst, Richard K.P. The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles. Addis Ababa: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1967, pp.28).

I see some quotations that might be incorporated. What do others think? I also have quotations for other kings, by the way. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Authors

When there isn't a conflict between authors, the expression of an opinion, or an unlikely statement, I propose we not directly say which author says what, as it's not good prose and seems unnecessary (a reader can follow the inline link to see who said it in these cases). I am doing that from now on (and changing those not following this). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 04:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of AD to years

IP 151.47.102.139 has added "AD" to all the years mentioned in the article. This is unecessary and unconventional. By convention, any date for which the area is unspecified is assumed to be AD/CE. One need only (and rarely) specify AD or CE, when BC/BCE era dates are being used, and there is some chance of confusion, that is not the case here. Paul August ☎ 23:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this had to do with the 7-yr. diff. in Ethiopian years (at least currently). ? 211.225.32.222 06:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, just a disgruntled user-cum-troll trying to make a point about dates (he disagreed with the use of AD at all, so used it everywhere to show how ridiculous that would be in a misguided attempt to prove his point). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article nomination on hold

The scorecard...

1. It is well written -Minor improvement needed

• Some minor capitalization issues, like in the lowercase muslim Rebellion of Haqq ad-Din I and Shewa, then populated mainly by muslims & other muslim provinces rebelled

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable - Clarity Requested

• There are two comments that it is not clear if they are referenced by the source that proceeds it a few sentences later. If they are related, I suggest rewriting it in such a way to eliminate the "weasel words"-i.e. Some have argued etc. If they are not related, these sources will need to be referenced on their own.
• I would recommend ISBN for the book references to ease in verification.

3. It is broad in its coverage-Yes

• Two areas that would be opportunities for expansion (providing reliable sources could be found) would be more info on his early life/ancestry and maybe an ending section about the lasting legacy. (In the intro you touch upon some themes).

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy -Yes

• I particularly commend the editors on this point.

5. It is stable -Yes

• There was a minor edit war in Mid-July but both sides were able to come to an amicable peace. As a whole the article has progressed gracefully.

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. -Yes

• This area is the weakest point since there is only a map illustration. However, I decided against making this a make or break factor in passing the article for Good Article status since an attempt to provide illustration for subject where images are scarces. This will be a hurdle if you wish to pursue FA status and I recommend more research into illustrations. Agne 04:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added sources for the two places where you added fact tags; I had meant to put one for the first one in the first place, actually. I'll try and go through the article for capitalization issues, and add ISBNs as I still have the original sources. Early life will be difficult to cover, though I may be able to find some legends on his early life, but I think I can get some stuff on legacy. I think there are two more areas of expansion: his conflicts with Basalota Mika'el (which I believe led to other monks being exiled, though there may not be much info about them) and his feudal organization, but the latter applies to basically all Ethiopian Emperors post-1270 (and even before), so it isn't a big issue. Don't worry about stability, that edit war wasn't really over this article but a proxy war being fought over style issues regarding the use of "AD," and this article was targeted because Llywrch had edited it recently. I know images are a big weakpoint, but it's been difficult to find any good ones, even later images of him. I do have five black and white images of parts of structures attributed to him (in Annales d'Ethiopie, vol. 8, 1970, pp.48-9, Planches VI and VII to anyone who's interested), but I don't have a scanner and I don't think it'll qualify for fair use. I am trying to get this article to FA status, though, so I'll keep looking. Is there anything I need to address other than checking minor grammatical issues (since I've sourced the two sentences needing clarification)? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 06:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You've answered my main concerns. I was able to verify some of the book references offline but I still encourage you to go forward with adding the ISBN. I will pass the article as GA quality. I commend the editors for putting together a well written and informative article on an area of scholarship that is dreadfully scarce on the project. My suggestions for improvement towards FA were relayed above, namely the pictures and encouragement to expand. Again, good work. Agne 16:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find a ref. to birth date. Even if it is unknown, THAT should be mentioned, lest people spend a quarter hour searching and coming away confused and unsatisfied. 211.225.32.222 06:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Both his birthdate and death date are unknown. I suppose I took it for granted that its absence in the lead would make it obvious. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)