Talk:American football rules

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Contents 1 Time of Play 2 Drop Kicks 3 Penalty section suggestion 4 This section is destined to be incomplete 5 referee? 6 Drop kick 7 Reviewed plays 8 Comparison article? 9 Please add referee hand signal images 10 Dead Ball By Ref 11 Adding a new section 12 rules question--kicks 13 Number of players 14 Downed player 15 With tee, or without tee. Kickoffs section

[edit] Time of Play

In many movies and television shows where a football game is played, they often contain a shot where the "good" team wins just as time is running out. Is this just a creation of movie/TV execs to copy the drama of a basketball buzzer beater, or is this a rule in high school, college, or pro football?

It sometimes does happen. When the clock expires, the quarter continues until the end of the current play. --Locarno 13:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 : That's what I thought, but the way most shows depict it, the player scores just before the time runs out. I wasn't sure if it was trying to match the drama of a basketball "buzzer beater" where the period ends as soon as the clock reaches zero or if it was an obscure rule from NCAA or high school football.

ʰ/* Players */ ɜ== Players == I'd really appreciate someone familiar with the sport explaining to me the roles of players, and the manner in which it is legitimate to block players?

Allowed blocking is by shoving the opposing player in the front or the sides with your hands to the inside of their body. It's perfectly acceptable to knock them to the ground or whatever, or to run into them or dive at their legs to trip them up, as long as you don't lead the block with your helmet.

Or grab with the hands, or chop block, or crack-back block. The first is holding and the second two are safety rules (a chop block is a double-team block--i.e. two blockers on one defender, with one deliberately delaying his block until the defender is already engaged by a blocker, then chopping him below the thighs/knees) (a crack-back is a block by an offensive player in motion toward the free-blocking zone at the snap then hits his target below the knees--college rules--or from behind inside the free-blocking zone). Confusing, huh?--Buckboard 06:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Offense:

Quarterback: Main role is to pass the ball to a receiver or hand the ball off to a running back. They may also run the ball themselves. Usually very tall (6 feet 2 inches +), must have very good upper body strength. (Also, the "field general"--usually calls the type of play or relays it from the coach, vocally calls out the signals to initiate the play)

Halfback/Runningback: Main role is to receive a handoff or pitch from the quarterback and then run the ball, but they may also run forward and receive forward passes. Usually 5 feet 10 inches to about 6 feet tall, must be very fast and agile. (The farther up the levels of play one goes---pop warner/peewee; middle school; high school; college; pro---the larger the requirement in size to be effective. 5-10 is considered OK for high school, but small for pro)

Fullback: Main role is to provide blocks for other players, but they may also receive handoffs or passes. They are usually tall and fairly heavy, but they must also be reasonably fast.

Wide Receiver: Main role is to catch passes, but they may also receive a handoff or pitch and run with it. They are often the fastest offensive players, and most wide receivers are at least 6 feet tall. (ditto here regarding size--6-00 is tall for a high school receiver)

Tight End: They have two main roles, to block and to catch passes. They line up next to the tackle (outermost offensive linemen). They are usually very strong and tall, and must be reasonably fast (some tight ends are extremely quick). (The relevance of the tight end as a receiver increases in importance the higher the level one goes)

Center: Their role is to snap the ball to the quarterback and then block. They are not eligible receivers. Must be very strong and large.

Offensive Guards/Tackles: They block. They are not eligible receivers. Must be very strong and large. (there are "tackle eligible" plays but they are considered trick plays and usu. have special rules governing their use)

Defense: (all defensive players may intercept passes from the quarterback/other offensive players)

Defensive Tackles/Ends: Their main role is to rush the quarterback (on passing plays) and stop the run. They must be reasonably fast, but also large (especially for defensive tackles, who normally weigh 290-320 lbs).

Linebackers: They rush the quarterback (3d ranked responsibility) and stop the run (1st ranked responsibility, LBs are gap-fillers), as well as defend against passes (2nd ranked responsibility). They are usually the ones that cover tight ends. Usually about as fast as tight ends, but not as tall.

Cornerbacks: Their main role is to cover wide receivers. Usually 5 feet 10 inches to about 6 feet tall. Usually the fastest defensive players.

Free Safety: Their main role is to cover all receivers, but sometimes provide run coverage. Between a cornerback and linebacker in physical attributes, but closer to a cornerback.

Strong Safety: Their main role is to provide extra run coverage (assist linebackers/linemen), but they also assist in pass coverage. Between a cornerback and linebacker in physical attributes, but closer to a linebacker. (in size, not speed)

This sounds like something you might want to put into an actual article, with some elaboration. Aerion//talk 04:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

In many cases, I'm attempting to place a lot of this into articles in Category:American football positions, FYI. — Lomn | Talk / RfC 20:16, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I added the parentheticals, assuming an audience that knows little or nothing. Also to illustrate that "some elaboration" may become quite involved.--Buckboard 07:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drop Kicks

We need to include a section on Drop Kicks. Although they are very rare nowadays, drop kicks were once an important part of the game. Doug Flutie also recently made history by scoring a drop kick and I feel that because of their historical importance, if for nothing else, we should include them in the rule book. AmbExThErMal

[edit] Penalty section suggestion

Copy/pasting this here, because it was erroneously placed on the article page by 216.40.234.227. Aerion//talk 04:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The best way to do this, for both offense and defense, is in relation to the hand signals used by referrees to indicate the penalty, which are always made in case mikes fail, and indicate the general category to which each belongs (what I came here to find; you people suck.) Example: the motion listed below under false start is virutally identical to the traveling call in basketball, however, this motion is also made in cases of illegal formation, illegal motion, and illegal shift, which, if I'm not mistaken is technically also an illegal motion. These sub-categories can be bewildering, hence my need for a reference.

False start and Illegal procedure are identical. In fact, it used to be "Illegal procedure: false start". I'm guessing that it was just shortened for convenience. Illegal formation is also illegal procedure. Illegal motion and Illegal shift are distinctly different from Illegal procedure. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: identify groups of penalties by the largest designation, indicated by the hand signal (i.e. delay of game is indicated by the official raising his hand above the side of his head then bringing it down flat atop his head, which I believe is a Dead ball foul) proceeding thence through individual subcategories and their members (i.e. Illegal procedure, with description of signal, including Illegal motion, and among its members Illegal shift.)

The Delay of game signal is the folding of the arms in front. Placing the hand on top of the head is Ineligible receiver downfield. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

But Walter Camp is dead; I'm not him.

[edit] This section is destined to be incomplete

I think this article is destined to be partially incomplete. The full rule book is rather large, but even so, it is rather inomplete right now. As I have time I can add more, but it's going to take a long time.

That's okay, as long as at some level it is complete in describing the most basic rules of the game. We can get more detailed as time goes on. Ask yourself, "What would a European or an Asian need to learn the rules of the game?" or "What would a non-sports fan need to learn the rules of the game?" For example, there's no sense describing instant replay if the article doesn't make clear the system of first through fourth downs. --[[User:P--Locarno 22:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)Szalapski|Locarno]] 14:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] referee?

"(Because the referee is also the only person who can stop a play in progress, he is in practice the only official who can flag for penalties that stop a play, such as encroachment.)"

Is this really true? It seems that on false starts and encroachments, several officials throw the flag and several officials blow the whistle. Also, on ordinary plays, it seems that a back judge or field judge would blow the whistle to signal, for example, down by stopped forward progress or other ends of plays.

Whether or not it's "true"--it's obscure and unimportant. No one has ever seen a controversary or a ruling or anything where the official throwing a flag had the right or not to call it. More importantly, because it does occur all the time, all the sections on ballcarriers being down and plays ending have ignored the role of the official's whistle. Play continues until the whistle blows. Play ends once the whistle blows--even if "inadvertant."--Buckboard 06:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The play continues until it is over; the official's whistle only announces to all the players that the play is over. If the whistle ends the play, it is an "inadvertent whistle," and the team in possession has some options (unless it's the NFL). And the guilty official has to buy the rest of the crew dinner. :) As for the referee being the only person with certain privileges, historically, he was the only person who could signal a touchdown, but that's been changed for at least 30 years, probably longer. —C.Fred (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drop kick

The "Field goal (3 points)" section mentions that the ball "must first be snapped to a placeholder". Really? I believe a field goal may be drop kicked. --Rich r 21:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It can -- but it is very rare during the last 50 years. I have been watching football since 1960 and I have never seen one. It was common during the early years.... Paulmeisel 22:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the things you miss while working on Wikipedia. Yesterday afternoon Doug Flutie drop kicked an extra point for the Patriots. According to Chris Berman's ESPN broadcast it was the first drop kick in the NFL since 1941 (by Ray "Scooter" McLain) -- the last drop kick for a field goal was in 1937 by Earl "Dutch" Clark.

[edit] Reviewed plays

When a play is reviewed by a referee and he rules that the down is to be replayed, the clock must be set back to show the time of the original ball snap. Musicwriter 16:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison article?

I'm thinking that a split-off may make sense, to turn this into a more generalized discussion of rules, and set up a Comparison of American football rules article. I'm picturing basically two tables: the first for general differences in rules, such as length of game, overtime, goalpost width, hashmark distance; and one specifically for penalty enforcement differences (e.g. pass interference is 15 in HS, 15 or spot in college, and spot in NFL). By way of comparison, see Comparison of baseball and softball. Anybody else agree? —C.Fred (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please add referee hand signal images

Please add referee hand signal images, or links to such, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marycontrary (talk • contribs) 21:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC).

The problem is, most of the charts of signals are copyrighted. I'm sure that either the Federation has copyright to the chart in my rulebook or licenses it and has permission to print it. So that rules out an inline image. As for links, I doubt they'd be that far down the tree from the NFL rules link, so they should be easy to find. —C.Fred (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's a chart of the NCAA official football signals (PDF). Here's from the NFL. Not sure about copyright issues; I'm sure they are copyrighted. I don't know how much can be used under "fair use". However, if someone were to do something like was done here and release it under a CC license that would be great. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Ball By Ref

A play can also be blown dead by the ref if a penalty occures such as offsides of lined up in the neutral zone DJW2tone 14:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Categorically false. The play is allowed to continue in both of those situations—except in HS or when a defender is unabated to the quarterback, and then the play is not allowed to begin. The only foul, off the top of my head, that kills a play is an illegal kick in NCAA. —C.Fred (talk) 02:50, 3 October 20

A play is stoped on false start or offsides if a defender is unimpeded to the quarterback in the nfl as well as Maddens famouse 4 4 4 defense.DJW2tone 12:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No; the play never begins on a false start. For offsides, the play is allowed to continue; for encroachment, the play is not allowed to begin. Twelve men on the field, if detected before the snap, prevents the play from starting; after the snap, the play is allowed to continue. —C.Fred (talk) 02:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I did cover the one situation where the official's whistle kills the play. Though what I meant to type was: The nearest official typically blows his whistle after the ball becomes dead to alert the players that the play is over. If the ball is alive and the official sounds an inadvertent whistle, then the ball becomes dead at the point when the whistle sounds. <!--That official then buys dinner for the rest of the crew after the game.--> —C.Fred (talk) 23:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a new section

How about a section that depicts ways in which possession of the ball is legally changed? Here's a list that I found of all the legal ways:

1) When the offense does not advance 10 yards in 4 downs

2) After points are scored

3) The end of the first half

4) When defense intercepts the ball

5) When a kicked ball lands out of bounds

6) When a kicked ball is caught

7) When a punted ball stops

How about it? Give it some thought. And I agree that this section is doomed to remain incomplete. mikecucuk 18:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC) Well, #2 is not true—none of the three forms of scoring change team possession (unless the scored-upon team elects to kick off after a touchdown). #3 effectively ends a possession but does not turn the ball over. I think it is a completeable list, though:

1. The offense does not advance 10 yards in 4 downs or does not score off a first-and-goal situation (turnover on downs).
2. The offense commits a penalty on fourth down behind the line-to-gain which includes a loss of down.
3. The defense intercepts a pass.
4. The defense recovers a fumble.
5. The receiving team catches or recovers a kick.
6. A kick goes out of bounds.
7. A kick is declared dead in the end zone (touchback).
8. A kick ends in the field of play unplayed by either team (your #7).
9. In a Kansas plan overtime, a field goal or safety is scored, or the point-after-touchdown is completed (by the team with possession first in the overtime).

I can't think of any other situation where a change of possession occurs. However, I think these situations are covered in the text. —C.Fred (talk) 02:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Change of a half is not a change of possession. The team that lost the coin toss at the beginning of the game chooses whether they want to receive or kick at the start of the second half. Rarely (usually when there's a strong wind) the team will choose to kick. But, really, no one has "possession" at the start of the game or half, so it's not really a "change" anyway. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rules question--kicks

Under "plays from scrimmage," a recent change was "the ball is dead when...a kicked ball comes to rest". I thought that field goal attempts that come to rest on the ground are still alive and won't be whistled dead? Thus this should be reverted to "punted ball comes to rest"? Not sure. --Locarno 13:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's the same principle for any kick. The text "and no player is attempting to play it" should probably be added, but generally, if a player wants to play the ball, he's going to do it before it comes completely to rest. —C.Fred (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of players

I believe that the rule is that there can be no more than 11 players on the field at the start of the play. I've never seen a team penalized for having 10 players on the field. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 17:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

College used to require exactly 11. In one case, a team bandaged a man up and put him in the back of the end zone so they had 11 on the field. Currently, as a practical matter, it's not required at any level. The NFL rule says it best: teams shall be 11 players each, but there is no penalty for fewer than 11 players on the field at the snap. (Although the offense must have at least 8....) —C.Fred (talk) 01:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Federation requires a team to begin the game with 11 players, but they can play with fewer after that point. I can't find similar text in the NFL rulebook (though as a practical matter, an NFL team won't be that strapped for players), and I don't have access to NCAA. —C.Fred (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Downed player

...any part of his body other than the hands, forearms, or feet touches the ground...

How, pray tell, does one touch one's forearm to the ground without touching one's elbow, unless one's arm is broken? An elbow counts for downing.

From the 2006 NCAA rulebook, rule 4-1-3:

When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot.

This section should just say "hands or feet". —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the NFL rules different - i.e. the player has to be physically TOUCHED while he's down to consider a player down? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.132.23.148 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

True, and that's noted in the description of the rule. —C.Fred (talk) 02:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the player simply has to be deemed "down by contact" and does not have to be physically touched while on the ground. i.e, if i were to push the ball carrier and he were to fall down it would still be a down, even though i only pushed him and did not actually fall on him. The rule, years ago, actually did require the player to be physically touched by the defending team while on the ground, but this rule was removed because it caused too many injuries.--Marqmike2 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] With tee, or without tee. Kickoffs section

I noticed that the kickoff description read as follows: "The ball is placed on a tee (or held) at the kicking team's 30 yard line (35 yard line in college and 40 for high school)..."

It might be useful to describe exactly when the ball may be held instead of being placed on a tee. I do believe that if the ball falls off the tee due to wind three times (i'm not positive if its three) then the player is then able to have someone hold it. I'm not positive though. --Marqmike2 22:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

A holder is always allowed, but obviously only required if the ball won't stay on the tee.

Yes, it can be held at any time. This is undesirable for the kicking team though, as it hinders the ability of one member of the kicking team (the player made to hold the kick) to get downfield. --67.165.6.76 01:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)