Talk:Aris Poulianos

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This article was nominated for deletion on 30 September 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

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Here's just a few of the unacceptable elements in the text version that was plagiarized/paraphrased from Poulianos' own vanity resume from the web:

• "and disproved the widely accepted theories...": POV
• "...widely accepted theories of German anthropology that classify the modern Greeks as a mixed Slavic group" - unsourced, probably factually incorrect. Who are those German anthropologists? Greeks as a Slavic group???!!?
• "...which have shed light on the origins ...": POV
• "...was elected Vice-President of the 8th International Congress of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences..." - Vanity. Sounds as if it was some high office in a professional organization? Well, somebody let him organize a conference. Big deal.
• "He is also a member of the New York Academy of Sciences..." - Vanity. Sounds as if it was some high professional achievement? Anybody can become a member in the NYAS, it's just a club you pay a membership fee for. [1].
• "The first proof of native intelligent human presence in Europe came with the discovery ..." Unsourced paragraph that was spammed across multiple articles by a notorious anon POV-pusher. Basically derived from "grecoreport".
• Bibliography: We don't do extensive bibliographies of scholars like that anywhere on WP. At most, a few of the most prominent publications can be listed (monographs etc.) But these are all short articles, conference talks etc. Half of them are from Poulianos' own journal, "Anthropos" (self-published, not peer-reviewed, obviously a vanity outlet. More than half of its contents are written by the two Poulianos' themselves!) The article claims he wrote five books, but the list doesn't actually contain any of them as far as I've seen, except the PhD dissertation.

I'll keep reverting if anybody tries to reinstate these and other similar elements. And WTF has this to do with "anti-Greek bias" please???!!? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The changes you demand do not coincide with the changes that actually occurred on the article. You just went about and removed anything that you considered "vainglorious." Who cares if you consider certain statements in the article as "vainglorious." If Aris Poulianos was a member of the NYAS, then he was and there is nothing in this world that will change that fact. I don't care how easy it is to get into NYAS or any other organization. Aris Poulianos being a member of NYAS is a fact and you are just going to have to live with it. The same goes for everything else that Aris Poulianos accomplished. I will not stand by idly and watch anal-retentive users such as yourself remove information needlessly. I will make some revisions to the article, but I will not allow the Poulianos article to be reduced to a mere stub. Threatening to revert the article shows that you are very narrow-minded and dishonest. Your reasons for making certain changes may have been sound, but you took your position as "Grand Editor" too far. Do yourself a favor. Step down from your "divine throne" and take a vacation. Deucalionite 20:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Publication list

I'm removing at least:

• Newspaper articles,
• Letters to the editor,
• Less-than-one-page reports to conference proceedings
• The self-published stuff from "Anthropos".

No scholar with any amount of pride would dream of listing such stuff among his "major publications". Let's not make Poulianos a laughing-stock. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Each scholar is different and what may be deemed as major in academia could be considered minor to the scholar. Yet, I am somewhat elated that you did not reduce Aris Poulianos to a useless stub again. Tell me, what changed your mind? I think that the facts pertaining to Poulianos' participation at NYAS and the 3rd International Congress of European Anthropology should remain. These are facts and your deeming them as vainglorious (even if they are) does not change the nature of these facts whatsoever. Again, the list of major works is fine, but the two facts you have removed should be put back into the article. Over and out. Deucalionite 21:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that he joined the NYAS is about as important as if he had joined the local bowling club. It says nothing about the quality of his work or his standing in international scholarship. You can either present this fact as a worthless piece of trivia. But no reader would want to read such trivia. Or you can present it in such a way as to insinuate that it is some noteworthy professional achievement. In that moment, it becomes a full-blown lie. - Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I am so happy that you are giving me "options". Either I present these facts as "worthless pieces of trivia" or present them as "lies." How nice. How about we make a compromise and get this over with? You allow for the statement of the 3rd International Congress of European Anthropology to remain in the article in exchange for keeping the "local bowling club" off of the article. If I were you, I would not reject this opportunity to settle this dispute once and for all. If you reject this offer, then the arguing will not stop. Unless, of course, you want to continue arguing. Your call and make it good. Over and out. Deucalionite 21:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The "3rd European Congress of Anthropology", whatever it was, wasn't a scholarly conference of any notable reputation. There are exactly zero references to this conference on the web outside Poulianos' own sphere (i.e. his aee.gr website and this Wikipedia article ([2]). Moreover, the proceedings of the "congress" were published in Poulianos' non-peer-reviewed self-published "journal", Anthropos. Apparently this was just around the time when he became a pariah in the scholarly community, and ever since then he has never published anything in any reputable outlet, did you notice? Again, to present this insinuating that it was a professional achievement would be little more than a lie. Therefore it must go. I'm not "giving you options", and I'm not asking any. I'm just trying to explain why it is bad to base Wikipedia articles on vanity web biographies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, we could of course state it in the context of his becoming a pariah: In 1982, he organized the 3rd European Congress of Anthropology, which however was boycotted by most other scholars because with his extraordinary claims and his research methods Poulianos had become isolated within the discipline. Something like that. That can be sourced even to his own website. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Put the sentence in if you want. Just as long as it is honest. Moreover, if you are going to put in the sentence the way the you have it, the least you could do is specify which scholars boycotted the 3rd European Congress of Anthropology. Don't just say "most scholars", because anyone can say that to make some useless point in an argument and get away with it.

Try this: In 1982, Poulianos organized the 3rd European Congress of Anthropology, which was boycotted by scholars such as (place scholars here). These scholars isolated Poulianos because they saw both his claims and research methods as extraordinary. I think the way I wrote it sounds a bit more balanced. Of course, if you don't like it, we could just remove the sentence entirely and forget about it. Your call and make it good. Over and out. Deucalionite 22:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'll see if I can get some reliable info on what happened there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Good. Let's hope your search is successful. However, if you don't find anything reliable, then spare yourself the agony and just forget about the sentence. Over and out. Deucalionite 20:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)