Talk:Army Combat Uniform

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The web belt is black, however, which does not quite fit with the stated reasons for avoiding black.

I'm deleting this, because it's not important. The belt is not visible on a properly worn uniform. If one really wants to pick out all the black on the ACU, there's still the rank and name tapes to consider.

Besides, both tan and black belts are approved for use with ACUs, and the tan one is now issued with ACUs at Basic Training Greeky 08:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Was this developed with cooperation of the people behind Marpat or Cadpat, or was this independently made? Also, can we get a pic of it from the field? There must be units using it already. Identity0 10:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I am wondering if this statement from the article is true: "[there] is a spot on the uniform for the ribbon and skill decorations (for peacetime use, as they are eye-catching)" Is there really a spot for ribbons on the ACU!? I presume someone is confused. There is a spot for skill badges on the ACU, but I highly doubt there is a spot for ribbons or skill decorations (since skill decorations would include drivers badge and marksman badges). Secondly, I am sure many soldier wear their skill badges even in combat (they would be covered up by body armor anyway, as would rank and nametapes). Atfyfe 06:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The rank and nametape are transferred to the body armor. Skill badges are to be removed during wear of the IBA or during combat. Greeky 08:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

these uniforms are shoddly made the hook and loop tends to not work after a month of use there is no place for the skill badges on the unifom the crotch seam tends to rip causeing indecent exposer do th males not wearing under ware

Actually, these problems have mostly been fixed, specifically crotch and some of the velcro. As to skill badges, there is a place - above the US ARMY nametape. As to 'not wearing underwear' - why would you not wear underwear? Even if you prefer to go 'commando', underwear is a part of the uniform (and CAN be inspected) Greeky 08:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 underwear 2 Uniform Care? Really? 3 Yes it belongs 4 Reasons for elimination of black 5 Officer rank insignia 6 What's the IR square? 7 Reversed Flag 8 Field Test Results removal 9 Design and Construction - (Does it belong?) 10 Multicam

[edit] underwear

Hey Greeky, I might be going off topic and on a POV rant, but I just checked AR 670-1 and it does not say that wearing of underwear is mandatory. I can see some anal retentive commander making it an SOP issue, but other than that, underwear is optional (for both males and females).

As to why somebody would not want to wear underwear? Just ask any operator or actual shooter and they'll let you know.

1) less things to carry and account for (weight vs. use). And I know some psychos who in the effort of cutting weight of their loads, would chop their toothbrushes in half. 2) less things to wash. I know that in today's military they have plenty of units that will wash your clothes for free (or civilian contractors), but when you rely on yourself, you hand was everything (just a thought). 3) Preventive Medicine. Besides shaving their pubic area, some operator also do not wear underwear to prevent chaffing in sandy and wet environments, preventing crotch rot, chaffing and the infections that come with it.

So there are reasons why people do not wear underwear. But I am a pogue, so I wear it. I would hate to get a no-go on my inspection lord forbid. LOL (^_^).

[user:jerry.mills]

Underwear can go a long way towards keeping the bugs out in a temperate area. Believe me, the nether regions are the last place you want a horde of ants. Sandy environments are a hell upon themselves, and going sans underwear honestly isn't going to help quite as much as some may think. And about the regulation omission, I'm fairly certain the reason AR 670-1 says nothing about underwear is precisely so that underwear CAN'T be inspected. I can imagine all sorts of EO problems occuring if that happened. teh TK 20:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uniform Care? Really?

What the...? Since when is it in an encyclopedia's realm to describe how to maintain and care for the clothing being described? This is not an instruction manual, it is a resource for information about the uniform itself. Even portions of the section about how to wear the uniform properly is stretching it. I couldn't find one other instance of "Uniform Care" in any of the other military uniform articles, and there's a reason for that. If folks are having difficulty knowing how to launder their own uniforms, I suggest they ask the Army, not Wikipedia. I'm deleting that entire section for this reason. --ScreaminEagle 21:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes it belongs

The special care of the uniform does belong, the detergent list does not need to be here but has been linked. 19 years Active Army --Ktinga

Your time in service has no bearing on your authority to determine the outcome of this discussion. What do instructions about laundering it on gentle cycle have to do with an encyclopedia? As I said, if you're having difficulty knowing how to properly care for your uniform, read the tag label/three-ring binder instruction manual that came with it. How on earth does laundry care affect or interest the average reader? Wikipedia is not just for the US Army, it's for everybody.

Stating that the fabric that the uniform is crafted from is unique from past fabrics and how it is different is great. Stating why a different fabric is now being used instead is fabulous. Maybe even stating that, "Because this new fabric is made from yada, yada, yada, personnel have been instructed to care for it differently than in the past, such as no starching under any circumstances as it will destroy the coloring of the camouflage design," or whatever the case may be. That is good to know. But spelling out the clothing tag information in the article is silly. It never states why the reader should care that it has to be laundered on gentle cycle and dried on low, etc. The shirt I'm wearing right now says the same darn thing. Do I need to advertise to everyone how I'm supposed to care for my shirt? No, because no one cares. And that's my point. The article is about a new uniform for the Army and why anyone should care. Laundering instructions without a purpose are at best trivial and do not belong.--ScreaminEagle 16:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It's either scary or amusing to think about actual soldiers getting instructions from wikipedia. I wonder if they'd believe it if I wrote "Camel urine is an effective and approved detergent". Imagine some private explaining to his CO at inspection why he stinks of camel urine XD "Sir, I read on wikipedia that-"

That said, it might be worth mentioning if it's somehow different or novel from other camo or fatigues. But IIRC, all modern camoflauge has the caution against improper washing because of IR properties that might be affected. Identity0 23:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for elimination of black

The article referenced in this section discusses why black was removed and links to a more detailed analysis. Including an explanation of how it IS found in nature as perceived depth. The last paragraph is at odds with the information there and seems illogical - if woodland gets darker as it gets wetter then black would blend in better, no? I have removed it.

"Woodland gets darker" refers to a woodland-camouflage uniform becoming darker, not to the actual terrain becoming darker. So no, black would not blend in better, as it would not reflect the appearance of the terrain--in this instance, a wooded are after a rain. 128.123.86.88 22:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Officer rank insignia

I wonder if someone could give us insight on the colors of officer rank insignia. I encountered a gentleman in ACU in the airport the other day, wearing a sold black oak leaf. I didn't know whether to call him "major" or "colonel." This page, as well as the pages for US Army insignia, could stand to be updated to account for this. Any help?--163.252.124.64 17:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The color of subdued rank insignia haven't changed at all. Silver rank insignia are black when subdued, and gold rank insignia are brown. The officer you saw was a LTC. Nathanm mn 01:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's the IR square?

I'm guessing that the IR square has some pattern (a US flag?) that is visible in the infrared spectrum (and is thus used to aid in identification at night). Can someone who knows follow the link (that I just added) and provide some detail (or a pic?). Thanks... Jhfrontz 13:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The IR square is an IFF aid used to identify soldiers, the tabs apper black but reflect IR and can be seen clearly using night vision. However, knockoff ACU's do not have the tabs (copyright and security), pictures may be hard to come by but I'll try to get some. Lyta79 07:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why they'd be hard to come by, anyone can buy ACUs. Here's one of the IR squares, the pockets on both sleeves are identical:

Nathanm mn 18:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

While "anyone" can buy "ACU"'s, real Army combat Uniforms come with the IR tab sew in with grey thread. Knock off's have to have the tabs added by the seller. Most pics did not show the tabs. Thank Nathanm. Can I put your pic in the article to show the IR tabs? Lyta79 05:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Sure, no problem. Nathanm mn 14:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reversed Flag

Everytime I see the flag backwards on a solders shoulder it makes me cringe. Does anyone have a history on this? I would also like to know which President approved this. (Comment added by 72.228.90.129, 00:36, 6 February 2007)

I don't know if any president was even involved. The reason is that the union (the blue part) is always supposed to face the front. Since it's worn on the right sleeve, it appears backwards, but is actually facing the proper direction. Nathanm mn 01:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm in the army and the explanation I've always been given (granted I can't yet cite it as a fact) is that it gives the appearance of a physical flag being carried into battle as seen from the right side of the assault. To show it the normal way (star field on the left) on the right shoulder would give the appearance of the flag retreating. And we just can't have that now can we. Ultratone85 11:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Some soldiers may offer that as an explanation, but it's just an urban myth. In reality, it's just the proper way to display the flag according to protocol. For more info, see section 28-19, para. c, sub-para. 2, in AR 670-1. (I'm also in the Army.) Nathanm mn 07:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes you can say that it's proper protocol, but that's only half of an answer. Yes it is in the regulations, but there is a reason that the leaders who wrote this regulation chose to make the flag reversed. The official explanation being, "When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward." [1] I've cited this source in the article. Never settle for half of an answer, Wikipedia wouldn't be where it is today if it only gave out half answers. Ultratone85 07:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

During WWII the Flag patch was worn on the right shoulder (by 82nd Airborne and Rangers) and the blue field is to the rear (like it was on a wall, take a look a John Wayn in The Longest Day). Gam3

[edit] Field Test Results removal

I've gone ahead and axed the Field Test Results section. You figure if the information was accurate there would be a source I could find with a little bit of Googlewhacking. None, zip, nada, just a lot of jawjacking from armchair warlords whose hardcore Airsoft-playing battle experience makes me take their word as gospel.

It seems like the only people who aren't complaining about the ACU are the soldiers who're actually wearing it into battle. That's the field test for you. I'll take one happy soldier over a million happy war-geeks any day. Kensai Max 01:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The criticism is basically valid, ACU camouflage doesn't work very well in a desert or woodland environment. But most operations today don't rely on camouflage, or they happen at night when the pattern doesn't matter. Nathanm mn 17:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all I love the phrase "armchair warlords". I get so tired of being lectured on tactics and equipment by these airsoft nerds. Secondly I have to say that I love this cammo. It's finally a uniform that's practically designed for combat. No more of the garrison pretty BDU uniform. I think it does alright overall. Works great for urban, ok for woodland, ok for snow. But I hardly see how it works for desert at all. But I don't really care because the fact is that where I'm at we don't go out into sector with ACU's on we wear tan "Nomex Flight Suits" instead because they offer flame resistance. Ultratone85 12:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it? Most of the people making that judgement seem to have made up their minds well before they ever laid eyes on it IRL that the pattern doesn't work and then slanted their subsequent experiences with it (if any) to "prove" that conclusion. Never mind that these are all Airsoft players and their idea of a test is to stand in a field or forest somewhere and see how well the pattern matches the background color, or people peddling other camo patterns who have a proprietary interest in the matter. It doesn't help that the propaganda photos the Army has put out on it are all pretty brightly lit, the bane of all camo. I have not seen -one single- rigorous test or analysis of the pattern.

Judging from what little personal experience I have, I'd say it works pretty well. You wouldn't want to be whacking through Vietnamese jungle in it (what the Woodland BDU pattern was really designed for), but I'd take ACUPAT any day if I wasn't expecting to fight in a dark forest or jungle. The pattern seems particularly suited to urban environments and doesn't blur out to a black smudge when a lot of other patterns do. Point being that if someone wants to claim that this or that camo pattern doesn't work they'd damn well better be able to reference an acceptable source. Kensai Max 23:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we add this source: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004issc/wednesday/dugas.ppt It's a test of prospective camo patterns from 2004. Notably, it does not have either AUC or any other digital pattern, and the overall winner was a "brush-pattern" in desert colors. The colors used also include black, which ACU does not have. The winners also tended to be more brown/green than the greyish urban paterns that were tested. Identity0 12:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here's something about the elimination of black, and from a pretty reliable source: http://www.hyperstealth.com/acupat/ . 83.4.216.240 09:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The people at Hyperstealth are hawking rival camo patterns. They stand to make money by stirring up negative impressions about ARPAT. Of course PCs suck if you ask someone at Apple, eh? This is what I meant earlier by "people selling other camo patterns". It's corporate propaganda. Kensai Max 18:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe so, maybe not. The point is... Well the point is that they have a point there. You'll find the same opinion on kamouflage.net -> http://www.kamouflage.net/en_010402.php . Most sources agree that although black is rare in nature it is seen as depth by our brain. I'm not saying that the ARPAT isn't any good. I'm just stating that well used black makes the eye 'look through you', as it has the impression of a deep shade. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.4.221.150 (talk) 15:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Design and Construction - (Does it belong?)

Everyone here seems pretty well-versed in care/use and 'operation' of the ACU. Does anyone have information relating to design, construction, testing, manufacture - companies, contracts, testing? If we're talking about uniform care, does its production need to be thought through also?

Danelle Jones 04:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Multicam

I put a fact tag on the multicam blurb someone added. Given the unlikelihood of Future Force Warrior becoming a military reality (Land Warrior's already gotten canned) and the fact that Multicam is generally associated with the FFW program, I find it unlikely that the Army is going to backtrack and adopt Multicam after passing it over for ARPAT once already. Is there a reliable government source for this, or is this just someone drooling over Multicam for no reason? Kensai Max 18:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I just removed that garbage statement that didn't have a source in the first place. Deon Steyn 12:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)