Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MIT Assassins' Guild 2nd nomination

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 08:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MIT Assassins' Guild

MIT Assassins' Guild (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Nomination for Deletion Student society whose sole unverifiable claim to encyclopedic notability is based on original research/hearsay. Fails core policy WP:V. The first AFD from June 2006 ended in no consensus after a couple of keep voters argued that the History of live action role-playing games page identifies the guild as "apparently important" (that is the phrase used by the main keep !voter argument) for popularizing the Assassin game. However, History of live action role-playing games is totally unreferenced and may have OR problems. MIT Assassins' Guild is also unreferenced and uncertain - the Guild article does not even seem to be sure if it was founded in 1982 or 1983 (The history of LARP article makes the unreferenced vague claim that the Guild was founded some time before 1981).

According to the MIT thesis linked to in the article's own external links section (this thesis was written by past Secretary of the MIT Assassins Guild[1] and is hosted on the Guild's own webspace), the MIT guild was officially recognized as a MIT student activity in 1982 and notes that at the time, there were many other such groups at other colleges (but which did not enjoy official recognition). The Guild is described in the thesis as originating as a group playing a game known as "Killer"

In another part of the same thesis, it is asserted that, aside from an earlier game with some similar characteristics known as "Circle of Death" that was popular on campuses, the most significant event in popularizing Assassin was the commercial publication in 1981 of a booklet of rules for the game "Killer" by the influential gamemaker Steve Jackson (US). In addition, the booklet is said by the thesis to have an afterword which states that the campus game is 15 years older than 1981, and may be traced as an idea as far back as the 1950s or even the 19th century.

The MIT thesis might be regarded as a reliable source for the article (but there may be WP:COI issues given its author). However,its account of the importance of the MIT Guild to the popularization of the Assassin/Killer game seems to be clearly at odds with the key claims to society notability in the Guild and History of LARP articles. It does not verify these claims - rather it seems more to discredit these claims

Bwithh 23:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not merge with Assassins (game)? There are clubs of this type at several US and British universities. StoptheDatabaseState 00:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say that clubs of this type can be found at most large US and UK universities. It is not especially uncommon. But Wikipedia is not a campus info booth, student activities bulletin board or a link directory. Merging or starting subsections on the history/current activities of all these student societies to that article would still be unencyclopedic unless each society can make their own special,verifiable claim to encyclopedic notability. Bwithh 00:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete not notable. Akihabara 02:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Not a vote. The above long explanation confuses two concepts: Assassin-style games and larps. The MIT Assassins' Guild began as a group playing the former, and it is claimed that it significantly influenced the latter. It is now a LARP group, not an Assassin-style game group. moink 03:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, though the Guild article does make a point of saying that the group "popularized the assassin game" whilst the history article seems to associate the guild's influencec with "Assassination style LARPs". Anyway, the claim of influence on LARPs would need to be properly sourced too Bwithh 03:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The MIT thesis suggests that a Harvard group was the most important influential group on the LARP scene. Bwithh 03:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as notability is not established, which I said in more flowery form last time around. (I continue to have the same COI from being a former member and gamemaster, although I doubt this is relevant to a delete opinion.) GRBerry 22:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.