Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Problems in the French Wine Industry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 04:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems in the French Wine Industry

Problems in the French Wine Industry (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

Despite my inclusionist tendencies, after much consideration I think submitting this article for AfD is the best route. This article is a clear essay in violation of WP:NOT. The uses of it sources amount to synthesis and (like most essays) is original research. Furthermore, the topic matter itself (and its POV issues) can be better addressed within the respective French Wine, Bordeaux Wine and Globalization of wine articles. After reviewing the article with other members of the Wikipedia Wine Project, we have found little value worth salvaging and merging from this article that wouldn't already be tainted with POV or original research. Agne 20:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. There's a fair bit of pure error and faulty logic, too. Admittedly, there is some potentially useful stuff in it. I don't think "chipping" in the sense used here is mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia. Andrew Dalby 21:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I know there are articles that do mention aging wine with Oak chips. They don't call it 'chipping' though. To be honest, other than this article, I don't know if I've ever heard the process called that before. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 05:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: The so-called sources seem to be just a lazy Google search. Nunquam Dormio 21:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete (with regrets). Move to new sub-page Talk:French wine/Problems in the French wine industry for future reference, because parts are still useful. I found the lead section rather interesting, but the rest of it seemed like an essay written as a school assignment, with far too many irrelevant details. Definitely synthesis. The article does contain some useful and interesting information, which is why I'm not altogether happy about recommending deletion. -Amatulic 23:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as essay-riffic. Could potentially form the basis of a new article e.g. History of wine-making in France which might be very interesting, but would require a lot of work. --Dhartung | Talk 23:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
• Move per Amatulic, to a sub page, as in Talk:Bordeaux or Talk:French wine. While this is a nicely researched opinion piece, it is an essay. Its contents still ought to be kept as potentially useful to other editors. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My concern with creating a sub page is that I don't think there is precedent for attaching essays to articles. Think of the sub page POV essays that could be written for the George W. Bush or Marriage articles? An ideal situation would be to userfy the text, since it is an essay. But the user who created this page, didn't create the essay. Editors on the Bordeaux Wine page had concerns over the POV and Original Research issues and so it was removed as a splinter article. The original author seems to be User:AshleyHouston who has not edited since April 2006. I agree that there is some interesting tidbits but after looking at the sources and the POV overtones, I personally don't feel comfortable with using any of it in an encyclopedia article. I think the editors on the Wine Project can do a better job introduce the subject matter into the respective articles starting from scratch rather then starting from a POV essay. Agne 20:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If there is "no precedent for attaching essays to articles" (There is no precedent for anything until it is done for the first time. — A. P. Herbert), then I would have to change my opinion to keep and merge, then. The mere presence of POV claims or original research in otherwise useful text is something to handle by editing, not by deleting. If I understand you correctly, this was broken out of an article on Bordeaux Wine, then perhaps it ought to re-merge back into the article, where any original research or essayish wording could be edited out. Or, if the only concern is attaching a POV essay in article space, and the Wine Project has a page of its own, perhaps it could be moved out of article space and to a subpage of the project page. - Smerdis of Tlön 21:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I've thought long and hard about this article, trying to see if there was anything worth salvaging. Unfortunately, to edit out the original research or essayish wording would leave you with nearly a blank page. Agne 09:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Agne, there is precedent for attaching essays to the talk pages of articles. I've seen it done. It would become a talk page archive. As a talk page archive, it's out of the main space, and anyone can still use the good bits. I doubt anyone would vote to keep the article where it is.

If you agree, then you as the nominator can withdraw this nomination, then go to the article and click on the "Move" tab to move it to a sub-page of a talk page; I suggest moving it under Talk:French wine per the comment of Smerdis of Tlön above (the new article name would be Talk:French wine/Problems in the French wine industry). To withdraw the nom, just strike out the nomination (Using <s> and </s>) and write "withdrawn" below it. I understand you can technically also close it yourself but I'm not sure how that's done. -Amatulic 00:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't plan on withdrawing. Looking at the history of this patch of information, it has remained virtually unchanged since AshleyHouston left it. It is a personal essay-one person's opinion and synthesis. Its presence is simply "Wiki-publishing" of original research. If it has a place in Wikipedia, it is on a user's subpage. Agne 09:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

My point was that there is no appropriate user subpage - unless someone volunteers. To the extent that some information in the article is useful, it belongs as a subpage archive to a related talk page. -Amatulic 22:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Nom. This is an essay filled with OR. It doesn't really strike me as encyclopedic. -- The Bethling^(Talk) 05:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This is a non-encyclopedic essay entry. Aside from the poor sourcing, the synthesis is questionable at best. Simonus 19:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. I created this page by moving the text out of 'Bordeaux wine'. Perhaps I should have just deleted it then. The text came from the 'French wine bashing' school of editors (French wine is rubbish, in terminal decline, we all want to drink Gallo...) whose influence has now mostly been removed from Wikipedia. The page breaks many of the wikipedia guidelines (especially OR, POV). Perhaps one or two bits of it could be extracted for use elsewhere. Poujeaux 14:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: While the content is interesting (though the presentation cumbersome) I don't believe essays belong in an encyclopedia. Steve.Moulding 21:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
• delete: find another wiki to put it in, it is a nice essay, but does not meet WP:NOT. Jerry lavoie 01:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.