Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thakur Sher Singh Parmar

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete for, most notably, lack of reliable sources. If anyone wants to BJAODN part of the hilarious content, it's available on request. Sandstein 22:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thakur Sher Singh Parmar

Thakur Sher Singh Parmar (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Bio of "prophetic geographer" credited with, among other things, being the first to note that India was an emerging world power (in, from what I can tell, 2005) and being a profound influence on someone the article refers to as "George Walter Bush, junior, the USA President". The sources that clearly bear on the subject are from MSN groups; the others appear mostly to underpin other aspects of the article's tortuous argument. The man most likely exists, but whether his world influence rises to the notable certainly seems questionable. His name has recently been inserted into a range of other articles, from Feminist geography to Geopolitics. Robertissimo 15:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete for the reasons mentioned above. "...an increasing number of Americans realized this folly and clamoured for return of their troops home from Iraq. Also, the Re-election of the War-Happy George Walter Bush, junior, the USA President further complicated the Global-Security Scenario. Simultaneously, the growing enmeshing and bonding of people all over the Globe in terms of the instant communication facilitated by the digital technology like the World Wide Web, popularly called the Internet, apparently started melting away the snow mountain of political boundaries to the ocean of insignificance." --Danreitz 18:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - The dainiks prove notability but the stuff in the article is suspect.Bakaman 18:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Though there is a citation list, external link list, and sources list, the article is very difficult to navigate right now. I'm hoping someone who cares about the article being kept will take the time to clean this up, i.e. connect facts in the article with the source from which they come. Also, the MSN links add a particularly unprofessional flavor; please consider providing more scholarly sources if they are available. Regards, Keesiewonder 21:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete A hodgepodge of supposed genealogy, caste membership. references to "President George Walter Bush" and notes of (citation given). No clear notability can be readily found amongst the dreck of this article. No objection to re-creating it in the future id someone can figure out why this person is supposed to be notable and providing multiple reliable independent verifiable sources. Edison 23:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Mereda 07:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• The artcile is no more hotch-potch.Supposedly racial reference is not racial reference and cannot be removed as it is harmless because it indicates individual's surname, family root n history.Links relating to MSN pages are ok because even other pages like India - [[1]]rely mostly on web pages.The page under discussion gives a good number of citations,sources and web page link.Sequencing has been done.Others can improve upon this article.There is no doubt about notability of the article.Amita Karpe 15:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

question: please remind me what you mean by sequencing. Thanks! Keesiewonder 15:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Web pages as citations are, of course, fine. I don't see any MSN web pages on India's page. It does have several .gov and .org links, which, like .edu links, tend to be a bit more scholarly than .com ... and especially groups.msn.com. Keesiewonder 15:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see [2]. So, Thakur Sher Singh Parmar and Sher Singh Parmar both use the alias Swami Apratimanand Ji ... And I cannot find any of these variants in book sources such as WorldCat. For me, the article currently reads as a personal biography written in the third person. My current vote on this article is Weak Delete; I'm open to receiving more, clearer, scholarly information that may sway my opinion. Perhaps something someone more fluent than me can check out is whether this article exists in the WP for any of the Indian languages. Keesiewonder 16:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete listed sources are vague. Verifiablity problem, notability not established, a bunch of emails on MSN pages do not constitute reliable sources. Likely a vanity article. --Duke of Duchess Street 03:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The Hindi dainiks (dailies) have probably published few of his poems, but that doesn't make him a notable Hindi poet. Other sources listed (MSN Groups) are not WP:RS. utcursch | talk 08:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP . Thakur Sher Singh Parmar and Sher Singh Parmar are variants of the same name.If a person has contributed to so many branches of geography, then naturally it is reflected in terms of his inclusion unde many headings.Receipt of a national level award like Dr.Manibhai Desai Rashtraseva Puraskar for contribution to hindi literature itself shows this person is notable.NO NON-NOTABLE RECEIVES SUCH A PRESTIGIOUS AWARD.The sources of dainiks show clearly that all his poems have been published and as such these have found a mention on the page. If this seems to be a biography , well what other Wikipedians doing - why don't they improve upon it.Its very easy to destroy or delete anything but it needs some hard work to improve.So why we don't improve upon this article instead of being bent upon destroying it.To say that "I don't see any MSN web pages on India's page. It does have several .gov and .org links, which, like .edu links, tend to be a bit more scholarly than .com ... and especially groups.msn.com." is sheer nonsense because scholarly articles can appear on any web pages including the MSN pages and by the way one can doubt that the so-called scholarly artciles on ".gov and .org links" are there simply because the scholars writing these had good personal relations with their editors and so managed to get their articles published there. All the objections being raised have only one clear aim of deleting this page, seems people are bent upon deleting this page.Honest officers like Sher Singh Parmar have thousands enemy who would like to see that no one comes to know of these honest people."And I cannot find any of these variants in book sources such as WorldCat." saying this is just running away from truth.If his name is not found on some searches then it means that the people running those searches have poor technology unlike GoogleIf we apply the logics being given by all these counter-vandal patrollers and others, then we have to delete all the pages from Wikipedia.There shall be no Wikipedia at all.I request the ADMINISTARTORS OF WIKIPEDIA TO BE MORE VIGILANT AND RETAIN THE CURRENT PAGE.

Monishasarkar 09:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - Thanks for the clarification; I can now comfortably move my input from weak to strong delete. I have requested more information, asked relevant questions, suggested room for improvement and have not received any answers other than POV. If my questions were answered (perhaps the most important being one I posted here [3]), I would gladly help you clean up the article in hopes of it surviving the AfD process. If there is no material published regarding this person in a book with an ISBN or a journal with an ISSN, then ... he is probably not noteworthy and doesn't deserve an article in WP. If you have the ISBN or ISSN, then please share it so I can verify it with my own resources. Another piece of information that would be helpful, since I've heard this is such a prestigious award, is a verifiable source listing of all the other winners of Dr. Manibhai Desai Rashtraseva Puraskar's award, before and after Thakur Sher Singh Parmar's receipt. Keesiewonder 13:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

If this,

B. This guy’s book on economic geography is the most popular book amongst postgraduate geography students in and around Pune, the Oxford of the East.This book is the pride of book-shelves in nearly all departments of Geography and business schools in Pune.For example, University of Pune’s Jayakar Library and Departments of geography in Pune have more copies of this book on the subject of economic geography than by any other Indian or foreign author on the same subject. Not all academic authors enjoy such powerful acceptance.Thus, this guy and his book both are notable.

from the article's talk page, is true, then there must be an ISBN for the book. Please provide it. Thanks! Keesiewonder 13:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the daily papers cited in the article is The Indian Express. A link to the paper's advanced search page is here [4]. I have issued several queries, all yielding "No Results Found." i.e. Search Query: Swami Apratimanand Ji; Match: Any; Appearing in: Anywhere; Look for articles published - Date Range - 1 January 2002 through 11 March 2006.

I have also attempted to connect with the University of Pune's Library, but, interestingly, the link to their library off of the University's main page yields a blank document called "test page." I have email inquiries in to the University regarding this. Keesiewonder 15:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. FWIW, from what I've been able to find, Ghits on "Dr. Manibhai Desai Rashtraseva Puraskar" and variants not concerning the current subject is, more or less, 1 (a physician claiming the distinction). Robertissimo 15:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• CONFIRM. Confirm the claims by sending emails to following of University of Pune -root@pumba.unipune.ernet.in, suresh@lib.unipune.ernet.in, ddss@unipune.ernet.in, webmaster@unipune.ernet.in, bhoogol@unipune.ernet.in, usupadhyay@unipune.ernet.in, coe@unipune.ernet.in, puvc@unipune.ernet.in, eavc@unipune.ernet.in, pupvc@unipune.ernet.in, regis@unipune.ernet.in, bcud@unipune.ernet.in, ecodept@unipune.ernet.in

For claims regarding Customs Seizure send emails to -cuspune@pn3.vsnl.net.in, mallikamahajan@yahoo.co.in, jkmeena67@hotmail.com, ptechcus@yahoo.com, zone3mumcustoms@yahoo.co.in I have found Pune Customs website -[[5]] Let us do complete checking.We should not believe in without confirmation. Patrolla 14:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the email addresses to the University of Pune; I found plenty on my own and will consider these if my first choices do not pan out. What I really want is an ISBN to the economic geography book written by our gentleman of interest that is reported as being so popular. Might you have that and be willing to share? The other thing that would be nice is if the University would fix the link to their library off of their home page. If I could do a search in the library's catalog, I would be all set ... I am doing quite complete checking for this AfD ... and am not finding much convincing material. There's time, and I'm relatively patient. :-) Regards, Keesiewonder 14:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete. The article is riddled with bad writing and POV, which would be worth mending were the subject's notability at all verifiable. Bearing in mind the policy Wikipedia:Verifiability, the essence of which is:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.

I typed this chap's name into Google Books and Amazon: Search Inside Books and came up hitless (in other words, our man wasn't even mentioned in one single book). Compared to the Herculean investigations of colleage Keesiewonder above, who I suspect could find a needle in the Sahara Desert, my casual clickings don't make me Sherlock Holmes, I admit; but unverifiable articles need firmly placing on their bikes, I fear. qp10qp 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

• Patience. I agree with Keesiewonder who has more patience.It needs lot more research n patience before we can decide.I have found some links.Someone should follow it up

Pune Press Link- [[6]] Email/Url link to Navbharat – [[7]] Directory of Indian newspapers- [[8]] List of colleges in Pune- [[9]] Patrolla 13:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. All these are well and good -- but none have any demonstrable link to the subject. It's fine to confirm that a given paper may or may not exist, but it does nothing to further presenting actual citations to the subject, his work, or his supposed influence on world events. Robertissimo 14:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Check this out - [[10]] or www.ibmr.org is website of Institute of Business Management and Research , pimpri, Pune n email address - ibmrc@vsnl.in

CONTACT-[[11]], the Symbiosis Institute of Management Studies -[[12]], contact-[[13]] Dr. D.Y. Patil Vidyapeeth, (Deemed University), comprising of Padmashree Dr. D.Y. Patil Medical College, Hospital and Research Centre, Pimpri, Pune- [[14]]and contact-[[15]] Dr. D. Y. Patil Institute of Management & Research, Pimpri- info@dypim.ac.in Department of Management Sciences, University of Pune- pumba@dms.unipune.ernet.in Moder college- [[16]] Someone should write to this college authorities and ask them- Does book "Geography,Economics and Economic Geography" by someone called Thakur Sher Singh Parmar exist in its library? If Yes, then how many copies does it have? IF THE CLAIM THAT THIS BOOK IS VERY POPULAR IN AND AROUND PUNE are true then this book should also be available in these management colleges of Pune. Same questions should be asked to all departments of geography in Pune. Patrolla 14:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I don't doubt that the book exists, and I don't doubt that there are many copies of it. However, if with my research and communication skills, I cannot find any reference to the book, and no-one can give me a citation that points to a published book, then, I am not convinced that we need an article on Parmar at this time. Even if the article is deleted, we can continue to work on this ... I have a colleague who has family in India ... maybe, just maybe, I'll involve him if he expresses interest. Kind (and patient) Regards, Keesiewonder 16:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia readers (or AfD checkers) shouldn't have to be writing to colleges to find out if someone or their book exists, but should be quoted reliable sources by the article's writers, whose responsibility it is to do that. Whether the guy or his books exists or not isn't the point. The Wikipedia policy is "verifiability, not truth". (That doesn't mean verifiability of whether the person exists, by the way. The requirement is made explicit in the proposed policy Wikipedia:Attribution: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reputable published source, not whether it is true".) qp10qp 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Precisely! I couldn't agree more. Keesiewonder 17:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. From looking at the article, it reflects a lot of energy and information-gathering, but unfortunately the information does not include what Wikipedia considers reliable sources. User:Keesiewonder has done a Herculean job of trying to validate what was provided, but did not come up with anything. I previously did not find an OPAC (an online public access catalog) that was web accessible at any library based in India. The lack of such a catalog may perhaps slow down the process of checking that the books that are named really exist. EdJohnston 17:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.