Talk:Aspartame controversy

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Contents 1 Rise in Brain Tumor Rates 2 References 3 US Policy Section 4 Refs 5 Deleted Vandalism 6 Reverts to Discussed NPOV sections (Methanol / Responses ) 7 Conflict of Interest section 8 This article is very poor

[edit] Rise in Brain Tumor Rates

The claim that brain tumor rates are rising is part of the controversy, and many dispute it. This claim should be sourced to original data that can be intrepreted to support a rise, such as something at the CDC or the NIH web site.

Hello. In the scientific community, there is a claim that aspartame may be one cause of brain tumors. Scientific papers on both sides of the issue were cited. I do not think it would not be appropriate to cite original data on brain tumor rates because it doesn't even begin to clarify the issue. What is looked at in the scientific literature is only certain types of brain tumors in certain population groups and the conversion of one type of brain tumor to another. Plus there is discussion of various animal studies and in vitro studies. Unfortunately, articles on both sides of the issue often cited "rising overall brain tumor rates" in relation to aspartame when the scientific issue is much more complex than that. The scientific studies cited in the article related to aspartame and brain tumors go into great detail about the issue. Twoggle 04:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Three references styles listed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:References#Embedded_HTML_links. Embedded HTML Links, Harvard Referencing and Footnotes. The text of the article seems to discourage the use of Footnotes: "Many of today's style guides require not using or recommend against using footnotes and reference endnotes to cite sources." I would prefer the Embedded HTML Links format. The other issue is that a very, very long Reference section would tend to push other sections off the page. That is why References are supposed to be put at the end of the article. However, External Links also go at the end. Since the Reference section will be extremely long and the External Links section will be shorter, I suggest putting the shorter section before the longer section. If that is not agreeable. Then I would want a link to the External Links section before the References (not just in the Table of Contents), so readers getting to the end of the article are well aware that there is another section a long ways down on the page, below the References section. Twoggle 15:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, good point to bring up. I chose to put the HTML references in the same way as other references, using the <ref name=></ref>, I do understand that that sometimes gives long references sections. IMHO, that is not a real problem, it is more that I don't like the mix of styles. For now I do it automatically, using a script that cleans up a lot of things in a page, but that indeed gives sometimes very ugly titles (but at least people know where they go when they click the link). I might be able to cut that down (I could e.g. only use the homepage as a text after the full link). Any suggestions for that? By the way, if there is an inline URL, the URL still should be also in the references section, so that does not cut it down.

Of course the External links - section can go before the references section, but both are not a real part of the article, people scrolling there already know that they get into a list of links. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 20:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

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Hi! I tried the reference links with IE and Foxfire your script set up and there was something not working right because clicking on the reference numbers either didn't go anywhere except a big jumble of HTML (rather than a clickable link). I suggest that we use Embedded HTML links as described at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Embedded_Citations. It would be relatively easy to duplicate these links in the References section using the suggestions on the Embedded_Citations page and then, gradually add more detail to the Citations as they suggest. You're right about the link being in the reference section. In addition, they suggest a full citation. However, smaller type can be used and that is why I recommended putting the External Links first -- The novice Wikipedia reader may click on the reference links while reading the article, but may not realize that way, way down the page below a more detailed reference citations are some pro- and anti- and new links. Twoggle 21:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm .. I am running Opera, and did not see a problem. It is conform one of the cite-mechanisms of Wikipedia. Now I must say, there were some references in that page, that looked like a whole lot of jibberish to me, quite a deeplink. Thus far (though I have not run the script on that many pages yet), I have not heard anything. Maybe one of the links in this article is not compatible with my script, I will leave it, its OK (it is in my disclaimer here, if it goes wrong, just revert and drop me a line). See you around! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 21:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't try Opera, but all I know is that I didn't see any clickable links, just something more akin to HTML code (in plain text/ASCII format). If there are no objections, I'll just manually go ahead and do what you were doing with the script, using the REF function, but gradually add more detailed citations. It's probably the easiest way to fix up the citations so they have more detailed information. Twoggle 14:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What the script does is first see if the url has the format [http://www.here.com A link about here] (so, this url has a decent description), these are left as is, just puts a <ref name="http://www.here.com"> before, and a </ref> behind (so if the same url is linked twice, it will appear only once in the references list!). Links of the type [http://www.here.com] (so without description) are converted to <ref name="http://www.here.com">[http://www.here.com http://www.here.com] (so the url of the link becomes the description, otherwise all those link will look like [1] <- this, which is non-informative in a bulletted list). Most references were of the latter format, but there was at least one very stange one .. might have gone wrong. But by all means, go ahead. I will copy the old version to my sandbox, and run my script on that, see if and what I can improve. Cheers! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US Policy Section

I cut the section because of the NUMEROUS citation requests, and a lack of citations being added over a resonable amount of time. Please add citations if replaced. Thank you. 76.20.176.60 00:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refs

Let's expand the references into full citations rather than just pubmed numbers. I can start working on it, but it's a big job and I'd appreciate all the help I can get. Thanks! delldot | talk 18:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted Vandalism

"However, the conclusions were refuted after an exhaustive, double-blind study that showed that mice, fed only sugar-free gum and diet Coca-Cola not only showed no adverse affects, but on the contrary, appeared 20%-35% slimmer and more sexually attractive."

I presume this is a joke/vandalism, so I'm deleting it. --RITZ 18:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Certainly if there is no verifiable source confirming that this study ever took place or came to that conclusion, it's fair game for deletion, regardless of whether it's vandalism. -Amatulic 18:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts to Discussed NPOV sections (Methanol / Responses )

I was gone for a while and noticed that two sections had significant and NPOV edits apparently without any discussion:

1. The Responses section was edited so that all of the pro-aspartame responses were at the top and the anti-aspartame responses were buried below. Of course, that is NPOV. It is already the case that the pro-aspartame links are listed first. To also list the pro-aspartame responses first starts to make the article more like at PR piece.

2. The Methanol section was drastically changed from banter back and forth of pro-aspartame and anti-aspartame arguments to a pro-aspartame section. In addition, many of the sentences completely misrepresent the arguments. For example:

a. "There has been some concern that aspartame metabolism releases methanol." This misrepresents the concern. The real concern on the aspartame side is that the release of methanol from aspartame causes the exposure to and accumulation of significant amounts of formaldehyde while such exposure and accumulation has never been seen from traditionally-ingested substances. While the manufacturer has a response to this concern, to represent the concern as simply the release of methanol is inaccurate.

b. "This methanol is distributed throughout the body, rapidly broken down into formaldehyde and formic acid, and shuttled into the energy production pathway." This is not quite accurate and relies on an undergraduate engineering review as a reference. There has been research on both aspartame and formaldehyde exposure slowing formaldehyde adduct accumulation. In fact, some of this research has been on smokers exposed to formaldehyde. So, while some percentage of the formaldehyde is converted to formic acid, not all of it is. I'd be glad to cite other research.

c. "It is believed that...." The pro-aspartame statement is prefaced with "It is believed...." and the anti-aspartame statement is prefaced with "Some say...." implying that one side has more weight than the other. Let's be consistant.

d. "For comparison, it should be noted that the methanol content (in milligrams/liter) of a soft drink containing aspartame is 55, whereas the methanol content is 20-36 for white wines, 99-271 for red wines, 181-2425 for brandy, 16-680 for grape juice and 180-218 for tomato juice." The comparison is irrelevant since it does not matter how much methanol is in other products. The only thing that matters is if the methanol in aspartame is enough to cause chronic toxicity after converting to formaldehyde and if the methanol in other products does or does not convert to formaldehyde. The reason such chart was left out of the discussed methanol section before is that it is used as PR and not part of a serious scientific discussion.

If a comparison chart of methanol levels is included as is often done by manufacturer researchers, then the counter arguments and chart needs to be included that shows that methanol levels in some fruit juices and alcoholic beverages are far above the levels proven to cause chronic toxicity ... and therefore these researchers argue that this would be more evidence that these substances contain protective factors. So, I'm just asking and hoping for NPOV information on both sides.

Twoggle 18:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the previous "studies" section that cited research from both sides. This section also includes proper references and phrases that put the sources into perspective. The fact of the matter is that you have several public health safety bodies on the one hand and small profit making companies that sells books and other material on the other hand. --Deon Steyn 06:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate of already-entered list of organizations deleted. The list is put together in an unbiased (NPOV) way as to not denigrate any of the organizations as that is not the point of the article. Some of the organizations are smaller and some are larger. Some of the organizations accept financing or exchange employees with the manufacturer of aspartame and some do not. Some have web pages about revolving door representation or 'quackery' or many other negative things. Almost all of the organizations listed are long-running, national organizations that some people respect and some do not. The fact that all pro-aspartame links are listed first and that a pro-aspartame organization is listed first should make the pro-aspartame crowd happy even though some might consister that very slight NPOV itself. Twoggle 17:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It is far from a neutral point of view to list some of these questionable sources along massive public health institutions. They have given themselves deceptively similar official sounding titles and most derive profit from their unsupported claims. To simply mix them in between the actual proper institutions is a deception, but then not to show references questioning their motives is definitely biased. The article has to show that laughable organizations such as Feingold Association with money making fads like [[Feingold Diet derive profits from their claims. --Deon Steyn 12:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It is simply extreme bias (non-NPOV) to denigrate certain national organizations that have thousands of members including scientists and researchers and accept other similar organizations that make statements more to your liking. My own bias is that organizations that take money from the manufacturer of a product might not belong in the article or should be buried somewhere below, but I know that in order to be NPOV, that cannot be done. For example, the main person responsible for continuing aspartame approval during the 1990s at the FDA worked with manufacturer researcher on their next generation sweetener (for pay). That doesn't make the FDA's statement right or wrong, but someone with a bias could bury the government organization since they claim the revolving door system at the FDA creates extreme bias.

It is important to remember that the Responses section was set up to list responses from a small selection of organizations on the subject that was discuss in an NPOV manner above that section. In order to do this, organizations are given equal weight -- even those public organizations that take funding from the manufacturer. After all, the Wiki on NPOV states: "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." Twoggle 18:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that all responses should be listed, but there should most definitely be a distinction between organizations by their function. One the one have you have government agencies tasked with public health and safety issues while on the other hand you have private organizations with unclear motives – some of whom profit directly from their claims. No one is "denigrating" either of the two groups, it's simply a factual distinction. Furthermore this distinction is an important one, because it seems that only the private organizations seem to be against Aspartame. One could argue that either group is biased or have ulterior motives, but the fact is that the organizational distinction remains and has a definite bearing on the organizations standpoint. --Deon Steyn 06:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe that organizations funded by the manufacturer of the substance or their trade groups should be the distinction rather than whether they are "non-profit" or not. After all, any joker can set up a non-profit organization. Nevertheless, most of the anti- and pro-aspartame organizations listed *are* public non-profit organizations (e.g., Feingold, NHF, etc.). Rather than manipulating the order and organization to suit my own bias, I comprimised and listed pro-aspartame org, anti-aspartame org, pro-, anti-, etc.

Again, according to Wiki rules: "None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one." Repeated attempts to bury anti-aspartame organizations (that you called "laughable") are directly in conflict with those rules. In addition, there are a myriad of ways to categorize the organizations, including as I suggested whether they have accepted funding from the manufacturer or exchanged employees with the manufacturer -- which some might consider more relevant than their tax designation (i.e., non-profit status).

If we cannot list the organizations in a non-biased, NPOV way, then we should permanently remove the entire section until a consensus can be reached. I think a comprimise of NOT categorizing organizations by non-profit status (even though almost all listed have that status) or by whether they have proven conflict-of-interest in the subject at hand is a reasonable comprimise. I even went so far in comprimising as to list a pro-aspartame organization first (even though pro-aspartame orgs are listed first in the links section). Twoggle 16:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

One other thing I noticed is that the "Responses" are duplicates of some of the External Links and really should be removed if no NPOV consensus can be reached on listing them without creating extreme bias. 24.34.65.127 22:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

One more followup.... I just reviewed a number of controversial Wiki sites related to ingesting substances. None of them had a "Responses" section, but they did have a *small* selection of external links that allowed readers to see opinions from various organizations. Twoggle 23:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not create the "responses" section, I'm merely trying to prevent bias (that in fact border on advertising) in the article. The organizations you mention (Feingold and NHF) most definitely profit from their claims through the sale of books and DVDs (things like the Feingold Diet). Worse still, they masquerade as non-profit organizations when they are not. Please also see (Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith) as no one ever attempted to "bury" the "anti-aspartame" orgs. I merely separated the various bodies into 2/3 groups, you can change the order of the groups if you like and put the anti-aspartame ones at the top, but to put someone with an official sounding name like the national health foundation next to the FDA, lens them undue credibility when they are in fact a small website selling DVDs. Why don't we just divide it into "pro" and "anti" groups then? --Deon Steyn 08:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The extreme bias put in the section is obvious. You started by calling the anti-aspartame organizations "laughable" and then burying them and the bottom. In addition, you are now inaccurately claiming that Feingold and NHF are not non-profit organizations when both are non-profit organizations. They sell books just like the organizations that you listed under non-profit organizations sell books. In addition, NHF has been around 50+ years and Feingold has been around for decades as well. Whether you agree or like or respect an organization is completely irrelevent. The same goes for me as well. It's clear from Wiki NPOV rules that they should be listed in an unbiased way or they shouldn't be listed at all.

I have removed the Responses section. I always start out by assuming good faith. However, repeated denigrating of certain large, national organizations in the talk section and then changing the previous setup (pro-, anti-, pro-, anti-, etc.) to bury the anti aspartame organizations and further denigrating them by putting the ones you don't like in their own 'special' category, makes me think that NPOV cannot be reached in this area. As I mentioned before: 1) there is no difference between the non-profits as they all sell items and they are all non-profits; and 2) non-profit status of organization is just one of many possible ways of categorizing the organizations.

I suggest we make suggestions here before we keep reverting. This will prevent constant reverts until a consensus can be reached. There is a Wiki section on Wikipedia:Negotiation. We have used it several times on this page subject before posting things to the main article page and in this way avoided constant reverts. Twoggle 20:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support the position by Twoggle. I must say it is a strange to way to apply principles by Deon Steyn. He dismissed opinion forming organizations whose goal is to further a cause as “for-profit” because they don’t give away their material for free but sell it. At the same time, he sees industry lobby organizations as non-profit and impartial. MaxPont 21:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

MaxPont, you are not seriously going to call U.S. government health organizations such as the FDA, CDC and NCI "lobby groups" are you? That is patently false! They are large organizations tasked with public health that don't have to rely on commercial funding. Admittedly that doesn't always equate with honesty or integrity (in fact some would argue exactly the opposite).... and this has always been my point: it is interesting and important to distinguish (at the very least) between government funded and private. Whether we put the one group first and then the other doesn't matter (for the record the gov ones were first, because it was an easier edit since they were mostly at the top and accusations of trying to bury is patently ridiculous). Either way, I support the last edit of user Twoggle to rather remove the section in it's entirety (who is doing the burying now :-), because it doesn't contribute much. Furthermore, it is quite difficult for the rest of the world's readers to appreciate, decipher and read between the lines when Americans wade in with corporate conspiracies theories etc. --Deon Steyn 06:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Interest section

I didn't see a single conflict of interest in the whole section. Tenuous connections between high level officials are not "conflicts of interest" especially when you realize that any high level officials are both corporately and politically connected. I'll give it a week to improve, then it's gone.

[edit] This article is very poor

For instance, at the moment it's a link farm. It's also very POV. I'm going to put the tag on and remove excess links for a start, it should only have a couple pro- and a couple anti-Merkinsmum 21:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please provide specific paragraphs/sections where boths sides of the issue are not presented fairly. Other Editors have commented positively, but it is certainly possible that there are POV sections where both sides are not presented clearly! Twoggle 20:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Books- only a couple of important ones need be listed, for each point of view. Not every book ever published about it:)Merkinsmum 21:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However, I *restored* the top few links for each section as those that were listed at the top, for the most part, represented the most authoritative links and links with the most scientific discussion/resources.Twoggle 20:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

What a mess. In case editors here don't know, we do have a PMID template. You only have to type in PMID followed by the number. Also, see the infobox on my userpage for a script to generate a reference for any PMID - it's listed under PMID template in the userbox on my userpage. Just enter the PMID, and it gives you a fully-formatted reference. (Click on the drop-down menu in the first box to get to PubMed instead of drug database.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I am very hopeless at cites so please bear with me and I'll try to swat up. Sorry:)Merkinsmum 22:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)