Talk:Athena

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• Talk Archive 1: Jan 2004-Dec 2005
• Talk Archive 2: dispute about Athena as a goddess of wisdom

Contents 1 Pallas Athena 2 "Great Goddess of the earlier culture"? 3 An answer about Athena and the owl 4 Image 5 On Athena's appearance 6 derivation from Hittite palahh 7 Not an Anatolian mother goddess 8 If you will add references... 9 removed Egyptian material 10 "Athena is the patron goddess for the social fraternity Phi Delta Theta" 11 Erichthononious

[edit] Pallas Athena

I often encounter the combination of Athena Pallada, when refering to this goddess. What does Pallada mean?

It's a form of Pallas Athena. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Great Goddess of the earlier culture"?

Regarding her springing from Zeus' head being "the culmination of his Olympian ascendancy over the matriarchal Great Goddess of the earlier culture"... No offense, but this sounds like neopagan wishful thinking. Is it backed up by any actual evidence of there being some matriarchal "Great Goddess" of some earlier culture (and what earlier culture)?

Sounds like something Robert Graves would have said...there's a lot of that in the mythology articles. Adam Bishop 16:55, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

(Whew! glad it wasn't me this time). --Wetman 18:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is actually quite extensive proof that a Goddess culture existed in eastern europe before the indo-european migration. This is supported by the work of a number of influential archaeologists, especially Marija Gimbutas. There is, however, no definite proof that Athena is connected to this culture, although it is certainly possible, even likely.Celsiana 01:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

"Definite proof"? It would be nice to have some evidence -- and no, not Marija Gimbutas. Sorry. The evidence she offered has been thoroughly debunked. Goldfritha 21:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I've posted a link to this really interesting article about this topic- it's the 'women in antiquity' thing by Alice Le Van.--Boa05zs 23:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the link, because it leads to a paper by a college student. The link is An Essay on Athene, Medusa and Metis. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An answer about Athena and the owl

If the Athena`s symbol is an owl, what does it mean that angel like guy wich is located right over her forearm in http://fury.com/galleries/road_trip_2003/index-Pages/Image6.html?

That's Nike. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting to note that three out of six goddesses were virgin. Athena, Artemis and Hestia. Consequently, their favourite animal could not be tamed. For Athena it was the owl for Artemis the deer. I am not sure if Hestia had a favourite animal. --Odysses (☜) 10:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

This is somewhat arbitrary, but Wikicommons has some images which I prefer to the current one at the top of the page. (There's something about it that strikes me as a little creepy).

• One
• and Two

I thought I'd check to see if the current one had some special significance before changing it, but if not either of the two above seem more "welcoming" to the page. (This is obviously very subjective. :) ) --Starwed 03:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Those images are out of focus, so I don't think they're suitable. It would be nice to have an ancient image at the top of the page rather than a modern one. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Athena's appearance

I have added a description of Athenas countenance in classic sculpture. Not only her attributes but her face is fairly constant in sculpture. If you wish to check if my description is accurate, the Athena Album link in the article is the easiest way.

Incidentally, the article describes Athena as wearing full armor. In some reliefs, pictures and sculptures I have seen, she is, but in most, she isn't.

Sensemaker

[edit] derivation from Hittite palahh

I removed this statement:

... her byname Pallas has been compared to Hittite palahh, a divine raiment [1].

The linked webpage does have an abstract (in German) of a paper that makes this argument (Fahri IŞIK, Zur anatolischen Athena im Lichte der Athena Ergane von Ilion und der Athena Nikephoros von Pergamon). However, this is just an abstract, not published research in a peer-reviewed journal, so I don't think it should be included in the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I also removed some other statements that seemed pretty questionable to me and didn't have sources, and took out the bit from Plato's Cratylus. The etymologies in the Cratylus are implausible at best, and probably weren't widely held by the classical Greeks, so it's usually not worth citing them in a general article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not an Anatolian mother goddess

• "She has been compared to Anatolian mother goddesses like Cybele." No she hasn't. Not by anyone. Athena is not a mother goddess. I've removed this. There is still a lot of unnecessary duplication in this article's larter sections. --Wetman 07:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Along similar lines, could anyone provide better sources for the stuff in the "History" section? Athena's "sisterhood" sounds rather dubious to me. Ruck and Staples seems to be a mythology textbook, which I would almost consider a tertiary source; if they're citing something, I'd rather have that be our reference. How about sources for Athena's origin as a Minoan goddess or as a bird-goddess? This site doesn't strike me as a reliable source. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

[edit] If you will add references...

Read first Wikipedia:Footnotes.

The information of the sources must be complete in order to find the original source easily. --> User:Atenea26, 14:10, 27 Julu 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed Egyptian material

I removed the following text:

However it must be observed that Herodotus, who traveled to Egypt and derived much of his knowledge of Egyptian events from his conversations with Egyptian priests, also believed that Athena was the same goddess as Neith ( Histories 2:170-175). Herodotus describes the temples and monuments he saw in Sais which had been built by the Pharoah Amasis II. These were, without doubt, dedicated to Neith, but Herodotus describes these as temples to Athena. He further states that Amasis built shrines to Athena in the Greek colony of Kyrene, and also on the island of Rhodes in the city of Lindos. ( Histories 2:182) Whether this implies that Amasis built structures in honor of both Athena and Neith separately, or whether Amasis considered them equivalent cannot be known. Nevertheless, that Athena and Neith were equivalent was apparently an established idea in Greece in the classical era. The interested reader may wish to further explore Herodotus' theories of an Egyptian origin for many of the Greek gods. (Histories 2:43)

Herodotus does say something like this, but his religious theories aren't regarded as reliable by modern scholars. For instance, if you look at Walter Burkert's Greek Religion, his section on Athena says nothing about Herodotus' "theories of an Egyptian origin for many of the Greek gods." Greek Religion is generally regarded as the authoritative work on Greek religion, so it's a good representative of academic consensus on these matters. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

>>Akhilleus-- OK, what you say is true enough, but before the above was added, the text made it appear as if this was an odd idea that Plato had, when in fact, probably a lot of people in his day believed it. I certainly did not intend to argue that it was true, so if I left that impression, then it was wise to revise as you did. I think the current read is fine. --Plamoa 13 Sep 2006

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your intentions, but I'm happy that we ended up with some satisfactory text. Thanks for supplying the Herodotus reference. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I re-wrote this:

Plato, and also Herodotus, noted that Greeks living in the city of Sais in Egypt worshipped a goddess whose Egyptian name was Neith; these Greeks, by Interpretatio graeca, identified her with Athena. (Timaeus 21e), (Histories 2:170-175).

Plato didn't say that citizens of Sais were Greeks, at least not during the time that Solon visited Sais. Plato's exact words are: "the citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that they are in some way related to them. (Timaeus,21e). --Odysses (☜) 17:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Athena is the patron goddess for the social fraternity Phi Delta Theta"

Some anon has added the following information about Athena to the Post-classical section, certain editors have been trying to remove it even though the argument that it is "irrelevant" seems a little suspicious to me:

Athena is the patron goddess for the social fraternity Phi Delta Theta.

How can you possibly argue that this is irrelevant to Athena? Do you understand the definition of the word "relevant"? There must be some other motive for your not wanting this to be exposed, because "relevance" is a non-starter for an argument. Is this going to take an rfd? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah we're trying to cover up the world-shaking information that a frat has a Greek goddess as a patron. NO ONE MUST KNOW! Adam Bishop 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I find this factoid too trivial for inclusion. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since this is encyclopedic and no valid reason has been given by any of the editors opposed to inclusion, this is going to rfd now, so even more people will hear of this. Fraternities may do a lot of things that they try to cover up, but if it can be verified, it is encyclopedic and 100% relevant to this article. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I find the idea that there is a plot to "cover up" this particular fact quite hilarious, really. Almost to the point that I am tempted to say that yes, indeed my plan for world dominination dictates that nobody shall know that that fraternity has elected Athena as a patron goddess. Instead, I might more simply point that, as you seem to suggest on your edits summaries, said fraternity is not a religious cult worshipping Athena; it is a university fraternity, and just like many others it chooes Greek names and characterists as points of style. --Nehwyn 16:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If you say you are not trying to suppress this information, why then do you object so much to its inclusion? It's pretty easy to demonstrate its relevance and encyclopedicity, so what is it really? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

My explanation above is all I can offer on this matter (the serious part, I mean); as for your proposal to put this to RfD, I'm not sure that Redirects for Discussion is the appropriate place. --Nehwyn 16:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is too trivial to be included. It's not encyclopedic to turn the "In post-classical culture" section into a list of factoids. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, make that RFC. We'll see if any other editors from RFC think this is "encyclopedic" or not. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

RFC Response Wikipedia:Trivia#Article content should be interesting (an essay that may become a guideline) tells us that we should only mention things that are encyclopedic (assumed by the entire page), interesting, and important. To whom is it important that the goddess is the patron goddess for the fraternity? To whom is it interesting? The proposed edit here is not cited. In our article on the fraternity, the factoid is cited only to the fraternity's website. Absent any evidence that anyone outside the fraternity has discussed this in a reliable source, I conclude that it is only important and interesting to the fraternity, and should only be mentioned on their article, not here. GRBerry 17:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Seconded. I'd go farther: I'd want an outside citation of this fact to happen in the midst of some text about Athena, not about the fraternity. Like other commenters, I don't think the fact that this (itself noteworthy, I guess) frat has Athena for a mascot is relevant to the subject of Athena. I dare say there are any number of noteworthy buildings, for a semiparallel example, that have statues of Athena out front; I wouldn't expect to see them mentioned here. And . . . dude, as far as I can make out, fraternities have rites and rituals and icons that are meant to be about mystique-building and shared weirdness and, I dare say, tongue-in-cheekness. If the goddess were to turn out to be (a) real and (b) propitiated by the Phi Delts' activities, I imagine said Phi Delts would be astonished. Iralith 20:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Not noteworthy. Goldfritha 21:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• I agree, it is too trivial to be included. I agree with GRBerry's comments above: Absent any evidence that anyone outside the fraternity has discussed this in a reliable source, I conclude that it is only important and interesting to the fraternity, and should only be mentioned on their article, not here.HeBhagawan 04:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• At best it is trivia, but it is so obscure that I can't think it would be interesting to anybody except the "frat" involved. This is the quality of information that clouds worthwhile information and leads WIKI down the path of being an encyclopedia fit only for those who read "People" and "National Enquirer" when no one is looking. Spare us; delete all trivia from serious articles. Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Relevance is not automatically a two-way street. It adds to an understanding of Phi Delta Theta fraternity lore to know who Athena is. Athena is relevant. It does not add to an understanding of Athena to hear that she is a fraternity mascot. This is not really very hard to understand... --Wetman 06:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Erichthononious

Could someone verify this please? I don't ever remember reading about Athena ever being raped, or having a child (son I'm guessing?). Since he doesn't have his own page, or is mentioned on any other page (at least according to the search engine on wikipedia), I don't trust the information is true, but then there are many versions of the myths out there, I didn't cut the information from the article. But if anyone has heard of Erichthononious (google just gives the Athena page on wikipedia and someone's blog) and could clarify his myth or if it's a mispelling, I'd appriciate it. If someone doesn't (within a week I guess? or maybe a bit longer since there doesn't seem to be much activity here), then I'll probably cut it. Irish♣Pearl 23:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It's spelled "Erichthonius". Or "Erichthonios", or "Erikhthonios". --Akhilleus (talk) 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I had not heard of Erichthonius before, but thank you for clearing that up (and sorry for not starting at the bottom)!

Irish♣Pearl 00:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)