Talk:Attack on Mers-el-Kébir

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Contents 1 Casualties? 2 No Vichy yet? 3 Result 4 Ship capture

[edit] Casualties?

Were there any British casualties? I think the article should say either way. -- dandelions, not logged in

re: British Casualties

From all accounts I have read, it appears there were no British casualties.

At least two sailors on HMS Hood were injured by French shell fragments, so there were casualties on the RN side, but only minor ones.

How many planes did the British lose in the action? At least one Skua was claimed by GC II/5 on the 3rd PpPachy 10:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

British Air Losses.

Total losses from the Ark Royal over the period are 6. I understand that on the 3rd, 2 Skuas and 3 Swordfish were lost. One Skua was lost on the 3rd while defending mine laying Swordfish in an engagement reported by fellow RN pilots to be with with both D520s and Curtiss Hawks - I note GC II/5 (flying Hawks) have claimed a Skua on that date. 2 Swordfish were lost to AA during bombing attacks on the Strasbourg, one Swordfish was lost while shadowing the Strasbourg, presumably also to AA, and one Skua was lost on making a forced landing beside the Ark Royal. The crew of the first Skua was killed, all other airmen were rescued - interestingly that first Skua seems to have been shot down prior to the naval bombardment.

On the 6th a Skua ditched alongside a British ship, both crew being rescued, after being damaged by Curtiss Hawks of GC II/5 while protecting Swordfish attacking the Dunkerque. The Skua crews felt the French pilots were half hearted in their attacks on the 6th, putting this down to reluctance to fire on their recent allies. http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/mediterranean.htm, http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-317.htm

http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_2_05.php

Practically I think this means the British casulty list is incorrect, as the Skua crew lost on the 3rd should be counted. I will amend the article accordingly

Winstonwolfe 06:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks PpPachy 09:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Vichy yet?

Quoting the article on Vichy France: The Third Republic was voted out of existence by a majority of the French National Assembly on 10 July 1940 by 468 votes to 80 and 20 abstentions. (...) The Vichy regime was established the following day, with Pétain as head of state, with the whole powers (Constitutive, Legislative, Executive and Judicial) in his hand. Yes, Pétain was already in office on July 3rd, but he was - theoretically - still accountable. I think the article should therefore not mention the Vichy regime except in a paragraph describing the distant consequences of the attack. PpPachy 14:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

it's obvious though that this action was due to the political influence of the vichy, not that of the third republic or the french resistence fighters. Therefore, this military action was taken against the vichy french, and thus should be noted as a combatant.

You can't take action against something that doesn't exist yet. Name anything bad Vichy did, it happened after MeK. Churchill didn't have a crystal ball in June 1940 that gave him Precognition about future Vichy crimes and compromissions with Axis powers. One could argue that, with Pétain in power, it could not have turned out different, but this isn't what history is about. PpPachy 15:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

PpPachy is correct about Vichy France. At the time, France and Britain were still considered allies. This attack started an undeclared war between the two countries. Scottmanning13

[edit] Result

I dispute the comment in the battlebox that "Vichy France is driven into the Axis camp". Vichy forces stayed neutral unless attacked. Axis forces did not get to use Vichy territory, indeed, they resisted Japanese occupation of Indochina and considered German occupation of Vichy territory as an abrogation of the armistice: Vichy forces then rejoined the Allies. The French Fleet stayed out of action and took decisive action to avoid use by Germany. All-in-all, they stayed aloof, despite Mers-el-Kebir and the resultant ill-feeling. Folks at 137 13:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me for my English, but I'm french! It's so complicated. The french navy in 1940 has not decided between Vichy ou Royal Navy. So we can say French navy is the same thing that Vichy . Ludo29 14:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ship capture

All the same, the relative ease of capture of the French ships at port reinforced Churchill's fear that the Nazis could do the same. This is not factual, unless there is a written account of Churchill saying so, and is highly disputable: the decision to attack Mers el-Kébir was taken long before the ships in England were captured. And of course there were no Germans in Mers el-Kébir, or elsewhere in North Africa for that matter, to capture the ships! PpPachy 13:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)