Talk:Australian electoral system
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An excellent entry, Adam: clear, precise, unbiased and readable. I look forward to seeing it completed. Tannin
"The voter is also free to place the ballot paper in the ballot box unmarked, or with a rude remark written on it. This is called informal voting."
Writing rude remarks do not make votes informal.
- I meant to convey that the vote is informal if only a rude remark is written on it. Dr Adam Carr 07:04, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- A vote is also informal if the presiding officer believes the writing on it could identify the voter, e.g. name, address, phone, email, etc. --ajdlinux 22:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I think a campaign to write "NO DAMS" on ballots at a Tasmanian (Bass?) bielection in the early 80's help convince the ALP to adopt a policy of preventing the Franklin Dam and that these votes were still counted.
Pwd 06:24, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- This tactic was used twice:
1. At the 1981 (I think) referendum held by the Tasmanian government which asked the voters to choose between two dams. Those who didn't want either dam wrote NO DAMS. These votes were informal because the voters refused to express a choice between the two options given. 2. At the 1983 federal election the No Dams people urged their supporters to write NO DAMS on their ballots. These votes were formal provided the numbers were filled in correctly. Dr Adam Carr 07:04, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Could you change the wording so it is clear that writing on ballot papers does not make them informal?
This is getting of the topic, but according to the [parlimentary website] many of the referendum ballots with NO DAMS written on them still expressed a preference. These were initially deemed informal, but then counted as formal after legal advice!
I looked at your website, Dr Adam Carr, and I see that the Bass Bielection was in 1975! What was I thinking?
Pwd 23:59, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Preferential voting is the Australian expression for what is called elsewhere the single transferable vote (STV) or instant runoff voting (IRV). These terms are not widely known by Australians, who tend to assume that Australia is the only country in the world where this voting method is known, let alone used.
- I love this dig at Australian ignorance :) PMA 10:28, Dec 23, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Very nice page
I hope I wasn't being presumptuous in making a couple of changes (I was surprised they worked!)- Wills byelection was in 1992 (Hawke got the flick in December 1991) and preferential voting first used in 1919 (100% sure about first but only 90% on second).
- Presumptuous? Indeed not! Being able to update pages in wikipedia is part of the whole point. Please help us correct and improve wikipedia whenever and whereever you can. Thanks! --Lexor|Talk 02:53, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Great article! Al
[edit] Terminology of Preferential Voting.
A new heading is required to explain such things as "Two-party preferred", "How-to-vote card", "Distribution of preferences", etc. 203.12.97.47 00:55, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
No it isn't. All the terms which are relevant to the topic are already explained in the text. Terms such as "protest vote" are not relevant to the topic, they are political not electoral. I have deleted the section and clarified some of the terms in the text. Adam 12:14, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Compulsory to be marked off, or compulsory to vote?
I've heard "it's not compulsory to vote, only to get your name checked off the electoral roll" from many people. However, none of them so far have offered a cite for this claim; "hard to prosecute" doesn't mean "legal".
The Electoral Act[1] is quite clear: "It shall be the duty of every elector to vote at each election." It repeatedly refers thereafter to "failure to vote" in the regulations concerning punishment for non-voting.
AFAICT, the confusion arises from other portions of the Act which note that failure to get marked off the rolls can be considered as evidence of failure to vote (and in practice, that's the usual form of evidence). However, I'm yet to see anything saying that this is the *only* form of evidence that would be accepted.
If I walk in, get my name checked off, tear up the ballot I'm given in front of the officials and other witnesses, then sign a stat dec. confirming that I did not vote... it seems to me that I could well and truly be fined under section 245. --Calair 02:44, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The counter example to this claim would be the electoral system in the ACT - specifically electronic voting. You are allowed by the computer programme to cast an invalid vote, or even submit a "blank" ballot (ie no vote cast), although it will apparently try to gently persuade you to actually vote formal. This would suggest something greater than mere acceptance of something that is hard to prevent, and at least a pseudo-legality to informal voting in the ACT.
--Jlsa 14:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ballot Access?
When did we start using the term "ballot access" in Australia? - Aaron Hill 02:12, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Never, and I have been reverting the use of this term as often as it appears.
- On the above discussion, the law is quite clear that it is compulsory to vote, not just to turn up at a polling station. The polling officials cannot prevent people casting blank ballots, and probably cannot stop a person putting the ballot in the bin rather than in the ballot box. But they would probably mark such a person as having not voted. Adam 07:08, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Abolition of compulsory voting
- "Occasionally conservative politicians or libertarian intellectuals argue for the abolition of compulsory voting on philosophical grounds, but no government has ever attempted to abolish it."
I thought I remember being pleased the Australian Democrats voted with the opposition to block something like this during the Howard government. I'll do a Google and Hansard search soonish... Mark Hurd 02:44, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I am pretty certain that no government has ever introduced a bill to abolish compulsory voting. I am quite certain that the Howard government has not done so. Adam 06:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- (18 months later) It was in SA:
- See here after Table 3:
- "In 1994, Liberal Government legislation was blocked in the Legislative Council by the Labor and Australian Democrat parties."
- See here after Table 3:
- The House of Assembly accepts it (Adjourned debate continues from 1/3rd down the page to the end of the page -- corresponding to 10:43PM!)
- The Legislative Council rejects it (PDF->HTML via Google) (on page 84)
- Mark Hurd 06:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
"I am pretty certain that no government has ever introduced a bill to abolish compulsory voting" I consider this highly innapropriate. I hate John Howard and beleive that "the People of Ausralia" should do so. Within Australian borders, I take offense to opposion of compulsory voting. For a good example, if I were a school teacher and a student made such comments about the law, I would send them straight to their head of year (there is no Article by this name, there probaly should be). Since the Australian Constitution does not guarantee 'free speech' (especially not in its American form), I feel I have a right to this. Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)
- Wikipedia isn't here to tell people how things *should* work, though, only how they *do*. --Calair 02:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
- Neither is it here to tell people who they should hate, whether they are Australians or not. Neither is it "within Australian borders"; its servers are in several places, but primarily in Florida, USA; its editors are all over the world. And I'm glad I never attended a school where I was subject to discipline for my political beliefs, as you apparently think it's proper for schoolteachers to do. *Dan T.* 22:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia isn't here to tell people how things *should* work, though, only how they *do*" I have always thought of that as applying to "articles." But this is not an "article" but a discussion on it, I have often assumend that many policys that apply to "articles" do no apply to 'talks'.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)(talk) | test | contributions|
[edit] Failed FAC nomination
Quoting Ta bu shi da yu: "Basically, this is an excellent piece of writing. It was written from a highly accomplished author, Adam Carr, and is quite NPOV". It's also relevant considering the recent Australian election, which is nominated for featured status below. - Aaron Hill 08:34, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
- Object for now. The lead section should summarise in broad terms the content of the article and references need to be made explicit. Filiocht 11:03, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
- Object 1) Lead section too short, not a summary. 2) No references. 3) The image has no source/usage info. 4) Use tables instead of typewriter parts. 5) While not necessarily bad, there is a lot of explanation of the voting systems themselves (apart from how they are implemented in Australia). Something needs to be explained (for ease of reading), but I feel this much is not really necessary. 6) Voting is compulsory. Is this enforced? How? 7) A map of the electorates (the Australian_electorates is just a stub) would be useful, since it is not very clear what the electorates are. Jeronimo 07:13, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Object. Compares poorly to Antony Green's history on www.abc.net.au or that on www.aec.gov.au. Littered with nationalist NPOV "It was felt that since 60,000 Australians had died in the first world war defending freedom, Australians had a duty to use the freedoms so dearly bought." Nothing on classwar and the history of the electoral system (ALP for goodness' sake). Nothing on the anti-democratic tendencies in the Australian electoral system (I'm thinking the fight for franchise in the 19th C in the state systems, the development of the party system under ALP pressure.). Littered with Americanisms "Ballot Access". Rework, historicise, remove Americanisms, need more on 19th Century and the party system.Fifelfoo 05:20, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] One, Two, Three, Three ...
Forgive me, I'm a lawyer, and I tend to remember things mostly if they generated interesting litigation, but what about Albert Langer and his bizarre campaign (whenever it was; 1993? 1996?) to promote the option of voting validly but without distributing preferences between whichever candidates you consider to be the equal worst. There was a prosecution, and some legislative amendments. I'm sure I can dig out some references if it's thought that this might be included, but I won't bother if it's thought to be not worth including.--SilasM 10:30, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought it was 2004. --ajdlinux 22:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Langer's "vote 1, 2, 2, 2" campaign & prosecution for it were 1996 - see here and here, for instance. He may well have been active on some front during the most recent election, but I'm pretty sure that particular loophole was plugged shortly after Langer's prosecution (in which he received a ten-week sentence for advocating what was, at the time, a legal and valid vote). --Calair 23:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Informal voting
The article suggests that failure to fill out all the boxes on a ballot paper renders a vote informal. However, it then goes on to discuss an actual election result (Helen Caldicott's attempt on parliament). In those tables refererence is made to "exhausted" votes. These are votes that have run out of preferences - that is, did not have any more votes beyond the person just eliminated (or only included preferences for other eliminated candidates). It is claimed that the Electoral Act has been changed since it would nice to have a date. I helped scrutinise at the 2000 ACT election and virtually any sort of vote was allowed (even ones with additional "made up" candidates added to the ballot paper and then included in the preferences). Maybe this is just a Canberra thing.
The AEC link provided is slightly vague (while seeming to confirm the statement through its definition of a formal vote, the definition of what is an informal vote does not include a failure to fill all the squares, just a duplication or uncertainty about the voter's intention - although there is another page with a summary of types of "informal" votes including the ones otulined above).
The claim that (Under ss.240 and 245(1) "in scrutinising ballot papers for formality the franchise will be favoured" suggests that a vote is formal as long as the voter's intention is clear. Filling out the form with 1,3,4,5 is valid because the intention of order is clear. Similarly filling out a ballot with 1,2,3,3,4 will be formal as long as the vote is not attempted to be transfered beyond the second preference (as up to this point the voter's intention is clear).
Even the used of X is accepted. Voting X,2,3,4 will usually be accepted by scrutineers as a valid vote for the candidate with the X first and the preferences following.
Maybe there is a difference between "informal" and "disenfranchised" here. There appear to be contradictions in the AEC stuff, general knowledge and practical application here. --Jlsa
[edit] The how to vote image
The how-to-vote card is Liberal. NPOV, anyone? --ajdlinux 22:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Whereas one from the Australian Greens would be NPOV. :P I didn't upload the image, but I think it's better to use a real HTV rather than an imaginary one. Andjam 23:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- Perhaps it should be moved to the House of Reps section of the article, where HTVs are first discussed? I'm not particularly fussed by its inclusion in the article (I agree that it's better to use a real HTV, and the Liberal one is as appropriate as any other) but moving it there would put it more firmly in its intended context as an example. If we need an image for the intro, perhaps a blank ballot paper instead?
-
- Come to think of it, a blank ballot and a HTV for the same election would complement one another nicely, if anybody can dig those up? --Calair 23:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I deliberately uploaded a Liberal HTV so that I (an ALP member) would not be accused of POV. You can't win :) Adam 02:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Where's a Marijuana Smokers Party HTV card when you need one! Georgeslegloupier 15:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Informal voting is illegal?
Blimey! Now they tell me, after all these years... My grandmother used to give them all a tick, to be fair to everyone...
On a more serious note, can anyone tell me WHERE it says informal voting is illegal? Because that is what the article is suggesting:
In practice, while illegal, informal voting - going through the motions of voting without actually filling in a valid ballot - is near-impossible to prosecute, given the secret nature of the ballot.
The legislation cited seems to make not voting illegal. But informal voting is still voting, wouldn't it be called something like "informal non-voting"? I think maybe someone has misinterpreted the legislation cited here. Or confused "informal voting" with "advocating informal voting". Georgeslegloupier 15:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
- The legislation doesn't say it is every elector's "duty to attempt to vote". It's clearly a pedantic point, but I believe we need a lawyer's opinion to suggest an informal vote is legal, as compared to an unenforceable illegality. Mark Hurd 05:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this a little while ago that states that voting informal is legal:
"A few years ago all the major parties passed an amendment to the Commonwealth Electoral Act making it illegal to encourage people to vote informal or in any other way not specified by the Act. Maximum penalty: imprisonment for six months. Although it is quite legal to actually vote informal, it is now a crime to advocate doing so." [2] Georgeslegloupier 16:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In today's SA state election the Legislative Assembly ballot paper says "You are not obligated to mark this paper." or words to that effect. Mark Hurd 03:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- And the reason is that the SA legislation has the same wording as the Federal one mentioned in the article (and above), but point (2) is added to explicitly allow blank ballot papers. See SA ELECTORAL ACT 1985 - SECT 85. Mark Hurd 05:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- IIRC, that "voting informal is illegal" was my edit. Looking back at it, I think I mentally amalgamated "voting informal" with "not voting", which I shouldn't have. It's clear that "not voting" is an offence - see refs in the preceding paragraph - but not so clear (to me, at least) whether an informal ballot would count as "not voting". (While we might refer to it as an 'informal vote', that doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'vote' in legal terms; I don't have a Macquarie handy, but dictionary.com defines a vote as a "formal expression of preference", and I'm not convinced an informal vote counts as either 'formal' or an 'expression of preference'.)
- But I'm not a lawyer and looking back on it, I don't think I had good grounds for including that claim, so I've removed it. The article could do with something on the illegality of advocating informal votes, but that's a separate issue (and wasn't the basis for my claim that voting informal is illegal). --Calair 08:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Norfolk Island
The article says the population of NI is not represented in the Federal Parliament. This is not entirely true. NI as a whole is certainly not represented, but this makes it clear that NI residents can enrol in any state-based Federal electorate, or Solomon (NT) or Canberra (ACT). I'm not sure how this information should be presented, which is why I'm raising it here. JackofOz 12:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Authorised by..."
I just edited I approve this message (see section "Other countries"), adding a reference to the Australian electoral system's use of "Authorised by..." at the end of ads. Could someone please check it and make sure I've got my facts right?
Perhaps it also deserves a mention in this article. It also relates to controversies over allegedly deceptive conduct, such as that by Exclusive Brethren supporting the Liberal party (recent SMH article by David Marr) and Liberal party flyers made up to look like Greens promo, except that they actually criticised the Greens, making what the Greens considered false claims. Just a suggestion - I don't know this area very well, and don't have the links... --Singkong2005 (t - c - WPID) 03:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- The fake Greens how-to-vote cards? Try this report for a start. It goes much deeper of course, but I don't know how article-worthy the Australian blogosphere is. --bainer (talk) 03:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Very common misunderstanding about "Preference Deals"
Is it worth noting or even clarifying the point that quite a few Australians believe that "preference deals" are given to other parties automatically without the voter's consent? As an Example: In QLD I vote (optional preferential system) 1 for the Fishing Party without voting for anyone else, once the vote has been counted it has been exhausted, but quite a few people think that because the Fishing Party did a "preference deal" with the Cotton Underwear party, my vote than goes to that party (in a close count). This seems to be perpetuated by the Australian media quite a bit, when the real meaning of "preference deals" is that a party will "direct" someone to vote in a certain way via a How-to-Vote card, but there is no automatic mechanism that makes it happen unless the voter willingly follows the How-to-vote card.--81.144.244.194 15:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)Lucas
The situation in the Senate is rather different, because there we have compulsory full preferential voting - the voter must either vote above the line, in which case their preferences are allocated as their party has directed, or vote below the line, in which case they must fill in every square themselves. In practice more than 95% of voters vote above the line, which means that a preference deal between (say) Family First and the ALP will result in the overwhelming majority of preferences being allocated according to the terms of that deal - which is how Steve Fielding got elected, and also how various obscure people got elected to the NSW Legislative Council despite getting hardly any first preference votes. Adam 05:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Federal Electorates
Technically, they are called Divisions.
[edit] Double Dissolution terms for Senators
After a Double Dissolution election has been held, which Senators (other than than the ones coming from the territories) will have 3 year terms instead of 6? User:Jleonau 22:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Joint Sittings
There seems to be a gap in Wikipedia's coverage of joint sittings of the House and Senate. One would come to the conclusion that the only time a joint sitting could ever be held is under s.57, following a double dissolution. However, casual vacancies in the representation of the ACT in the Senate (and presumably of the NT as well), are filled not by nomination by the relevant "state" parliament (the ACT or NT Legislative Assembly), but by a joint sitting of the Federal Parliament. This is precisely how Margaret Reid was chosen to replace John Knight. As far as I can see there is absolutely nothing about this in any article at present. Indeed, there seems to be nothing about how casual vacancies in either house of parliament are filled. JackofOz 13:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Defending freedom?
I think the reasons for Australia adopting Compulsory Voting could be looked into a little more than "a duty to defend freedoms so dearly bought". Writing that 60,000 Australians died "defending freedom" seems a bit of a generalisation.
- Well the fact is that was the rationale used at the time. Rocksong 01:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
