Talk:BACH motif

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Contents 1 B, H, and Bb 2 "WEDDING" 3 Transposition 4 Hofstadter 5 Why?? 6 Danish example of "composer's name" motif

[edit] B, H, and Bb

Just for the reassurance of anybody who happens upon one of the dodgy websites I found while writing this: the article here is right - "B" is "B flat" and "H" is "B natural", not the other way round.

Damn right it is!!!! :) Nevilley 19:15 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

On another note, I found a webpage which said there were works by Rheinberger and Karg-Elert based on BACH, and Grove says that Rimsky-Korsakov and (if I remember correctly) D'Indy used it. Anybody happen to know what those works are? I'm sure there are lots of other examples as well, I just mention these ones because the composers are pretty well known, and I'd be interested to find out myself. --Camembert

[edit] "WEDDING"

Great article, Cam! Was it Schubert or Schumann who wrote a piece in which the bassline spells out "WEDDING" in German? -- Tarquin 10:12 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks tarq, it was fun writing it. "WEDDING" is a new one on me. Definitely sounds more like Schumann than Schubert, but I don't know, really. --Camembert

What I remember my piano teacher telling me was that he wanted to propose, but his potential future father in law was not keen. So he wrote a piece with that bassline, and sent it to her so she got the message. -- Tarquin 16:55 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Then I'm pretty sure it can't be Schubert. I may be wrong, but I don't think he ever planned to marry. Schumann on the other hand married Clara Wieck, who was a pianist (so this would make sense) and, if I remember correctly, whose father wasn't too keen on the pair getting together. So it sounds like him. I think I have a Schumann biog lying around the place somewhere, I'll see if I can find anything about it in there. Must say though, I don't know how you'd spell out WEDDING in German - isn't the German word Hochzeit? How do you make a Z or a T or an O or an I? That said, Ravel once spelled out Haydn's name in a piece, so anything's possible... --Camembert

Yes I found an oddball page about people spelling things out in music. You had to stretch the rules or invent your own in many cases. btw I changed hommage to homage, hope this is correct, if not just beat me up. :) Nevilley 19:15 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

I've been thinking about starting an article on things spelled out in music, just for fun, but I can't think of a good title for it. You're right about "homage" by the way - two Ms in French, just the one in English (god knows why). And I looked in that Schumann biog for mention of WEDDING, but nothing was forthcoming (he spells something out in Carnaval though, ASCH, if I remember correctly - can't remember why). --Camembert

Camembert, Could the German word in question be "Ehe" (marriage) rather than "Hochzeit", "Trauung", "Heirat" or "Vermählung" (wedding)? It's certainly an easier "spell" -- Someone else 19:50 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Possibly, although the sequence of notes "EBE" probably wouldn't be very recognisable unless bashed out quite a lot. Then again, I suppose they'd stand out in A flat major or something - yes, it's a possibility. --Camembert

NB, EBE is a tritone, not a perfect fifth. EHE is a fifth. 209.112.192.94 19:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC) -- Bruce Simonson

It's so short I thought perhaps it wouldn't stand out: it would be in there only for the delectation of the cognoscenti. Which will make it, alas, hard to find :( -- Someone else 20:05 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

L'Arlesienne, Zarathustra? :) Nevilley 23:19 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Never heard of 'em. Racehorses, are they? Oh, alright, I suppose a fifth can be recognisable given the right instrumentation and the right films. I wouldn't want to have to check whether every perfect fifth in Schumann was a marriage proposal, though ;) --Camembert

Heheheh. And Fanfare for the Common Man does it backwards and is therefore a writ for divorce? Oh and by the way ... "and the right films" - bitch! I'll get you yet, damme, Sir! :) Maybe we need an article "List of tunes with fifths in" ... Nevilley 08:17 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

And maybe we should move this page to "List of BACHs" and have that mirrored by a genealogical listing at "List of Bachs"... --Camembert

The Schumann thing probably is in relation to his "Myrten", Opus 25, a cycle of 26 songs that apparently is ordered in some alphabetically-coded manner. The song cycle was a wedding gift to his wife Clara. It's not clear if the "alphabet" relates to the music or the lyrics, but perhaps someone else can clarify. -- Someone else 09:37 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find a score for that cycle and have a look. I'm not too sure what it all has to do with BACH, but I'm curious :-) --Camembert

(six months later) I'm still going to check up on this, by the way, honest! --Camembert

[edit] Transposition

Do we really need this in the article:

In many pieces, while the exact notes B-A-C-H are not played, a transposition of the motif is used (a note sequence with the same intervals: down a semitone, up a minor third, down a semitone).

I mean, if the motif has been transposed, it's not the Bach motif any more, is it? It's the FEGGes motif or whatever. Also, what are these "several other pieces" by Bach that use the BACH motif? It would be good to list them here if possible. --Camembert

OK, found one of them, the Vom Himmel Hoch canonic variations, BWV 769 (see talk:The Art of Fugue). It'd still be good to have a list if anyone can provide. (On reflection, incidentally, I don't really mind that sentence I've quoted above.) --Camembert

the very end of contrapunctus 4 quotes the BACH motif (a bit subtly, in the tenor). one of the fugues of the WTC has a theme of the same "shape" as the BACH motif, but that may be coincidence. (possibly F# minor or C# minor of WTC1?) also there is of course BWV 898! (apparently a "doubtful" work but still deserves mention.)

[edit] Hofstadter

Is it worth mentioning Douglas Hofstadter, who devoted some attention to this phenomenon in Gödel, Escher, Bach? JFW | T@lk 13:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I would think so. Supposedly, Bach fell ill and died almost immediately after writing it in. I assume this story has factual backing, and it would be nice to see it on Bach's page and/or this one. -MescalineBanana 06:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why??

Why in German is B alone referred to B flat and H to B natural, as opposed to the standard English terminology?? Georgia guy 00:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I admire your question, but do not have an answer. Musical notation is silent on the matter. Key signature names and translations tells us about the names used in other languages, but gives no history of why they are different in some cases. There's a job for somebody with an hour or so to kill.

There's no reason to assume, though, that every country would use the same conventions as are used in English. The English were hardly at the vanguard of the development of western music theory and nomenclature when all these things were coming about. JackofOz 01:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK it's not all that common to use letters for the names of the notes anyway. French uses the solfege names (C=ut, D=re, E=mi, etc.), and I think Italian does too. —Angr 08:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Danish example of "composer's name" motif

Carl Nielsen has composed at least one longer work with a motif spelling the surname of a fellow Danish composer: (Niels) G-A-D-E. (The name of the piece escapes me, but I read this detail in an album liner years ago.) ISNorden 00:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Liner notes often contain fascinating tidbits, but I've never heard about this one. I'm compiling a list of "tributes" from one composer to another, and this would certainly qualify if it was true. I've found nothing about it on Google or elsewhere. JackofOz 00:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)