Talk:Battle of Adrianople
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[edit] old talk - may be undated, un-titled and unsigned - please clean-up
An event mentioned in this article is an August 9 selected anniversary
Would it be to much to ask that people sign and date their comments?
Thom Simmons, Kapiti Coast, NZ Malangthon July 12, 2005
your information on this page is incorrect. fritigern did not lead an attack on Valens and Valens did not battle the Visigoths. from several sources it is said that Fritigern and Valens were attacked during peace negotiations. it is in question who exactly it was that attacked them... Gibbons hinted that it might have been by Roman forces who were not happy at the thought of peace. He said that they could have even been Roman troops sent by the brother of valens. both Valens and Fritigern died because of the attack.
Would like to see those sources. J. B. Bury is as highly regarded a source as any and he treats the entire episode in his chapter "The Visigothic Entry Into the Empire." The Hermanric Ostrogoths had already been severely beaten by the Huns and the Alans were streaming toward the borders, being absorbed by the Germanic tribes. The Visigoths under Athanaric had been utterly defeated at the Dniester and everybody was running toward the Roman border. It was chaos. Fritigern was the great uniter. The Goths that met Valens at Adrianople were a mix of the Gothic tribes and other Germanic peoples. There may even have been Hunnic mercenaries amongst them. Fritigern was, however, Visigoth.
Ammianus Marcellinus says that there was a pre-emptive attack at the battle of Hadrianople by the Roman archers led by Bacurius the Iberian that interrupted a peace envoy led by Richomer. In essence the only source, Roman, is saying that it was a rash screw up and the negotiations were not actually in progress (though there had been earlier attempts).
Whether Fritigern was actually engaged is unknown. The cavalry that decimated the Roman infantry were led by Alatheus and Saphrax. When and how Fritigern died is not clear. Ammianus does not say and people like Bury and Gibbon do not say either. If some one has a source please speak up.
Thom Simmons, Kapiti Coast, NZ Malangthon July 12, 2005
Gibbons isn't exactly reknowned for being a great historian anymore, really, and a lot of his stuff shouldn't be considered too reliable unless it's backed up by other sources. As for the Adrinople article itself - the first set battle the Romans lost? That's spectacularly incorrect, as the Romans had a long, proud history of military defeats going back more than eight hundred years by that point.
Well if he ain't considered a great historian, someone ought to tell Norman Kantor and J. B. Bury and others who think he invented the genre. Gibbon does contain errors but a sweeping attempt at discrediting him does not advance the debate. Furthermore, he also quotes primary sources, in this situation he quotes Ammianus at length. There is sufficient value in that to retain Gibbon as a source.
Thom Simmons, Kapiti Coast, NZ Malangthon July 11, 2005
"It was the first set battle that the Romans had ever lost."
The Romans had indeed lost set battles before -- does the Battle of Cannae ring any bells? This line has to go: it's absolutely incorrect. I have deleted it.
Here is what is significant, it was, according to J. B. Bury, the first time the Roman infantry had been routed by cavalry. In that, at least, it is a watershed event that led to the prominence of the cavalry in Europe.
Thom Simmons, Kapiti Coast, NZ Malangthon July 11, 2005
Since this was a puny little article, I translated the much more detailed one from the French wikipedia, hopefully accurately, although someone more fluent than me might want to check (and someone who knows more about the specifics may want to fix some things...like "shield-archers," I'm not sure about that). I want to add the pictures from the French one as well, but it's a little more difficult figuring out how to put them into English. Adam Bishop 21:15, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
With regard to the section "Composition of the Roman troops": Where does this come from?
J. B. Bury (The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians) states that the primary source, Ammianus Marcellinus, "did not tell his readers definitely the number of the forces on either side. So that we do not know precisely how strong the Goths were, or how strong were the Romans."
Thom Simmons, Kapiti Coast, NZ Malangthon July 12, 2005
Why does the article earlier say that few romans had heavy armour, even refusing to wear it, then later claim that the romans could not maneuver due to their heavy armour?
A. D., Heidelberg, Oct 28, 2005
- I too found this odd. It's inconsitent and confusing. Hu Gadarn 06:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Use of Stirrups
I thoroughly enjoyed the article, it was a cracking good read.
I'm under the impression the irresistable force of the visigothic cavalry's charge, and the turning point of the battle . . . was the effectiveness of their early use of stirrups . . . ?
Apparently Valens himself escaped temporarily to a farmhouse, the Visigoths on realising this burnt the farmhouse and Valens in it.
Source for above two "By the Sword" by Richard Cohen, another cracking good read !
Jerry Kenny 30th Jan 06
Stirrups? Stirrups?? Stirrups??? In the 370s???? The Goths did not use stirrups!!!!! IIRC the Avars introduced stirrups into Europe some centuries later. Jacob Haller 08:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I deleted the stuff about stirrups. Jacob Haller 00:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
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- It seems to be pretty common in a lot of sources to read that the stirrup was used at Adrianople, usually the controversy is how significant it was to the battle, and to the future Roman calvary. -- Stbalbach 13:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Elton, Hugh, 1996, Warfare in Roman Europe, A.D. 350-425, p. 109 ... "This suggests that the lack of stirrups was not important, a hypothesis supported by the apparent lack of chance in cavalry tactics after their introduction in the late *sixth* century." Jacob Haller 06:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Feugere, Michel, 1993, trans. Smith, David, 2002, Weapons of the Romans, p. 136 ... "Stirrups were unknown in ancient times, an early mention of them being in the Strategikon of the Byzantine emperor Maurice (AD 582-602). The earliest known archaeologically found stirrups come from seventh-century Avar tombs in Dacia." Jacob Haller 06:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't know.. how did the story of stirrups become so popular in association with this battle, are you saying it's all myth that has since been debunked, there were no stirrups in the late 4th century? if so this is notable and should be mentioned in the article. -- Stbalbach 03:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Roman Forces
This section's pure speculation. None of our surviving sources identifies how many legions or auxilia were involved. (Although Sebastianus had 2,000 or so men, with 300 or so drawn from each of various legions, some time earlier, this was only part of the Roman field army in the theater). I think it better to point out various numbers estimates and/or point people to studies of late Roman field armies and Barbarian tribal armies. Jacob Haller 08:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] the death of Valens en the consequenses
The article states "...in the worst Roman defeat since the Battle of Cannae."
As mentioned in the article on the battle of Cannae the Roman loss at the battle of Arausio was bigger than the loss at Cannae. It was certainly bigger than the loss at the Battle of Adrianople.
To avoid discussions maybe the article should just mention the Battle of Adrianople was a major defeat. Pukkie 08:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Pukkie, blessed are the peacemakers. I salute you. Augustulus 01:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to completely disagree with this section of the article. I find that the fact the article states that while this was clearly not the end of the roman empire and that it did not completely destroy the Roman empire's army it only succeeded in crippling the army for a short time. This is completely irrelevant and untrue to the article's purpose. The Empire was already in a massive decline and the Army was crippled for a time wayyyy before this time. The Roman empire was a mere shadow of its past form. Cmatos1991 17:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Opposing Armies
Made several changes to 'Composition of the Roman Troops.' Need similar section on 'Composition of the Gothic Troops.' I can't reconcile Ammian's account with more than 20,000 Gothic troops, or see how the exiles and their allies could field more than 15,000 relatively lightly-equipped troops. And others, including Delbrück, have kept their estimates of Roman numbers below 15,000 for similar reasons. Jacob Haller 03:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Gothic forces: In the first subsection, we should probably discvuss the two contingents, i.e. Fritigern's largely Therving contingent of about 10,000 and Alatheus' and Saphrax' largely Greuthing reinforcements of at most comparable size. In the second subsection, we should discuss experience, equipment, and related issues. Jacob Haller 22:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- This pre-supposes such information is accurate and widely accepted. It is debated and open to many interpretations. This article should discuss the scholars themselves, including names, dates of works with a summary of position. See Decline of the Roman Empire for example. Let the reader decide. We simply report on what other people say, not tell people what is right or wrong. -- Stbalbach 23:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] False Claims
In the first place, the Goths were only Germanic in the loosest linguistic sense; the phrase "Germanic Tribes" suggests more west-Germanic-ness and less agricultural-society-of-the-North-Pontic-plains-ness. In the second place, the 'Visigoth's as such did not exist before the 390s and the 'Ostrogoths' as such did not exist until several decades later; the Thervingi and the Greuthungi do not correspond with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. The presence of Alans is reasonable but not proven; the presence of Moesian and Thracian rebels is about as reasonable (if we read Ammianus) and not proven either. I suggest listing Thervingi, Greuthingi, and possibly Alani and local rebels. Jacob Haller 22:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- This was discussed in more detail recently on the talk page of the Goths article. Obviously much of the material on Wikipedia is not up to date with current views on a number of fronts - the Goth's story on Wikipedia basically represents 19th C German historiography. -- Stbalbach 23:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Book
Probably it would be useful to rewrite this article (and the french version as well) after having red this book: Alessandro Barbero, The day of barbarians, 2005. http://www.walkerbooks.com/books/catalog.php?key=635 Goneri {unsigned}
[edit] strength of armies & casualties
I may be wrong, but it doesnt seem accurate for the estimated strength of the roman army to be 15,000 to 30,000, whereas the death count was about 20,000. Wouldnt the army size be closer to 20,000 to 30,000?
- See above. Ammianus states the Romans suffered 2/3 losses; noone offers absolute figures. Given 15-30,000 Roman troops that implies 10-20,000 Roman losses. Jacob Haller 01:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want to adjust the strength figures, please discuss your changes here, and give recent scholarly sources for your estimates. Thank you. Jacob Haller 23:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] this paragraph is a mess!
Quoted from the background section:
After learning of Sebastian's success against the Goths, and of Gratian's victory over the Alamanni, Valens was more than ready for a victory of his own. He left Melanthias for Adrianople, where he met with Sebastian's force. On August 6, reconnaissance informed him that the Goths were marching towards Adrianople from the north, about 25 kilometers away. The goal of the Goths was to circumvent the Roman army that stretched back towards Adrianople. Despite the difficult ground, Valens reached Adrianople where a camp was constructed with a ditch and a rampart.
- I can't tell what the second-to-last sentence is supposed to mean (outflank? to what end? with what target? if the Romans are strung out along the road, the Goths could hit the front of the column and roll it up). Also, the article uses the passive voice far too often. Perhaps "... the Roman army fortified its camp behind ditch and rampart" in the last sentence. Jacob Haller 04:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Also, I would suggest "reconnaissance informed Valens that 10,000 Goths were marching towards Adrianople from the north, about 25 kilometers away." Jacob Haller 04:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Agreed. Please, edit for corrections. Everything can be improved. -- Stbalbach 14:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Link Issues
The Sebastianus link leads to the wrong guy. Drop the link or disambiguate and start the stub?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacob Haller (talk • contribs).
- Does either one have a more complete name that could be used to disambiguate? If not, pick the one who is the lesser known, and create some sort of identifier like Sebastianus (Adrianople) and then on the Sebastianus article create a top-hat that reads "For the Sebastianus at the Battle of Adrianpole see Sebastianus (Adrianople)" - something like that. -- Stbalbach 14:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Greuthungs
The Greuthungs and Ostrogoths are two different groups. Sure, Jordanes identifies the 4th-century Greuthungs as the predecessors of the late-5th/early-6th century Ostrogoths, but Jordanes identifies the Getae, and many less plausible groups, with the Goths. Peter Heather shows this in The Goths and Goths and Romans, 332-589. Jacob Haller 18:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Argentaria
What exactly does "Argentaria" mean?
- A Roman town. At or near Colmar, IIRC. I'm not entirely sure. Jacob Haller 18:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks.--Shikyo3 00:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Did Somebody Move This?
Because I've been correcting Battle of Adrianople (which used to lead to disambiguation, iirc) to Battle of Adrianople (378). Jacob Haller 01:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
