Talk:Beauty
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[edit] Archives
- Talk:Beauty/Archive1 ('02)-('06), 58kb
[edit] Body Weight
The article stated that the one notable exception to otherwise historical stability of standards of beauty was female body weight...yet standards for male body weight are equally unstable; compare the hefty seventeenth century Germanic burghers to the almost worryingly slender nineteenth century English gentlemen to the obese Tahitian men to current Western standard, which seems to once again have returned to the Greco-Roman standard. Hence, I have removed the qualifier "female". JDS2005 07:23, 7 January, 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Scientific foundations for human beauty
I very clearly remember some sort of documentary that included the information I've distilled into this edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beauty&diff=99056216&oldid=99053502
However, I can't remember WHAT the documentary was, hence this information requires citation, seeing as it adds a lot to the article, but does not stand well as a simple assertion without citation. JDS2005 07:44, 7 January, 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Scientific?": not possible
Let's not confuse "quantitative" with "scientific." Most philosophers of science would not even let you get past "beauty" or "attractivenss" since those are not independently established, verifiable, replicable entities.
The scientific method is pretty much a requirement for "doing" science. . . all of the studies I've seen to date about universal standards of beauty fail the "rolling eyes test." Just chat with an anthropologist sometime and figure out what concepts you could employ that would port so easily across cultural boundaries.
Just for example: US, Europe, India, Hong Kong, Australia, Taiwan. . .what do all these places share? They don't call it "Bollywood" (or "Baliwood) for nothing! Many of the same production values (and stereotypes) that "contaminate" cultures make any sort of statement about universality suspect. (remember, we're working from an anthropological perspective here--if you want to make any sort of universalist claim, you need to demonstrate cultural isolation. If the kids all read the same textbooks, listen to the same music, watch the same movies, whatever you have isn't universal!)
I just read that the chief of one of the "primitive" tribes in Amazonia just announced to (yet another) TV documentary producer "I think I need a tummy tuck--I look too fat!" Sorry, but there is no concept of tummy tuck indigenous to the native people's of Brasil (if these tribes are really the native people, fodder for another speculative trail).
Now let's look at how our variables will be operationalized: If you are measuring "desirability to men" you fail, already. Who says that "beauty" has anything to do with sexual desire? What about the old and equally heinous, but cleaned up for this forum "there's the girls you date and the girls you marry." So according to our operationization of the variable "beauty" we now have "beauty" as a characterization of objectivization. Would you argue that men would choose to marry those they found less beautiful? Perhaps, but now we are way out of the ballpark of any "scientific method."
Since we are talking about anthropology, let's consider time span. How long have Homo Sapiens been answering surveys about what they believe is desirable? How long have Homo Sapiens been coupling for recreation and procreation? Would science allow us to make a generalization of Time T1 to T10,000 based on data exclusively from Time T9,995? Nope.
So taking a seque from anthropology to statistics (since we are relying on a sampling of a very large population to allow us to ascribe characteristics to those members of the population we have not actually tested). Does each and every member of the population "all people everywhere for all time" have a known probability of being included in our sample?" um, no. Scientific research does not allow you to measure some characteristic of an animal A1, combine it with data from A4, A399, A39300, and A4 million and claim that your findings have validity *unless you can demonstrate that each of these A Animals are the same thing? Disparate things, no findings.
Moving to Anthropological Linguistics. . . Are we able to ascertain that the words used in each culture are linguistically identical? If not identical, can we ascertain exactly how they are different? Let's see, compare lots of American English words for "beauty" and assume they will linguistically map? (speaking of phonemes, here, the linguist *knows* there is no credible semantic mapping even within a language group with a rather minor geographic distribution--which drives the semanticists crazy) If it is not phonemes you are taking for your data, what are you using? You can demonstrate that two sounds are more or less identical, but if you are making all sorts of assumptions about meanings crossing language groups (and this, in turn, drives the linguists nuts) you really don't have "data" you can defend in a scientific sense. If a respondent answers "That is one bad woman!" does it mean that the picture of the woman is considered beautiful or ugly? Do you have to know their location to tell the difference? Perhaps even rely upon the data collector's judgment? Apples and oranges. Not science.
Now let's look at population ecology, epidemiology, and several related disciplines. These folks are willing to let a lot of the data particulars slide, but they really do depend on strict operational synchronization. The way I understand it (and we are moving way far from my fields) they are willing to admit some sloppiness in their data, as long as it is the same sloppiness everywhere. That is, you can count different factors in different places as alike, but you have to maintain data collection in a context-aware fashion. You can lump owls and arctic foxes together as Level 3 predators in this biome, and hawks and red foxes (I'm making these examples up, can you tell?) together in this other biome, but you have to demonstrate that the foxes in both biomes occupy similar niches in their respective biomes. That is, you can't lump together all foxes, without careful regard to their position in their environment. So, if we are headed this way in our attempt to group data from different ecologies, we simply must show that the same factors are relevant in each. Do the populations in each location have the same level of stability in their food supply? Does the representative stimuli (presumably pictures of women revealing enough to at least tell what their real body measurements are) occupy similar niches in their respective ecologies? That is, do young unmarried females in one cultural setting represent an economic blessing to their family, and a hardship to another? Are beautiful women considered in terms of household expenses to maintain, or are they expected to be self-sustaining or even contributing to the subject male's economic setting? If they function in one capacity in one society and in a quite different capacity in another society, any context-based discipline will disallow them as similar: No matter what you might call them.
I'm not even going to venture into semiotics, talking about how signs and symbols create our worlds through a variety of complex and always changing processes that constrain our choices in ways we can't (by definition) even know. I believe the point is as clear as I can make it.
There are many other perspectives, of course. I am not even suggesting that there is a particular science that needs to be followed. But there are many, many more studies produced in universities than are considered to be credible to those committed to the scientific method.
It may be that instead of "science" these researchers are working within an established discipline that maintains some other standards. Boldly I would say that the large majority of the "genetic story" sorts of studies are not accepted by geneticists, by social scientists, or by anyone else. Speculating that some gene worked in some way through the millenia is tautologically not provable. That does not mean that it should be excluded from intellectual debate, but that if it starts by claiming the scientistic (from "scientism" rather than "scientific" from "science") ground of the finality of data.
This probably sounds more harsh than I intended. But this is a topic that has done a lot of harm to a lot of people, especially those who are led to believe that their own options or self-worth are bounded by their genes. It is quite likely that any discussion about "beauty" is going to rest on philosophy, popular culture, and "the meaning of life".
To put it another way, we can be very specific and sure about something really vague, or we can be vague about something so specific it has little value in a discussion of something like "beauty." Let's not oversimplify the topic.
One last caution: There's "peer-reviewed" and then there is "Peer-reviewed." In a system where everyone has to publish in peer-reviewed journals or lose their job, wouldn't you expect to see a lot of peer-reviewed journals? Some disciplines have only a few, but other disciplines have tens of thousands of peer-reviewed journals. If six of us meet at a conference, we can set up a web site and have a peer-reviewed journal. We are all peers, after all.
Most universities have rather complicated "tiers" of journals in which the lower-tiered journals are deeply discounted (often capped at the number of points journals of this tier can be counted for promotion and tenure decisions. Problem is, with so many thousands of journals in a field (let alone the journals that are interdisciplinary) it is increasingly that anyone else in your department will be reading the same journals you read. How can a university even know which journals are "hot" this year? Discovery and understanding is not a linear thing.
Just to make things even more confusing: Even the most highly regarded journals send through "way out there" pieces every now and then. It keeps folks from becoming too comfortable and sometimes (even) it represents payback for some past slight, real or imagined, or a tender spot for some developing area of research.
Nothing should be taken as "settled" or even "known" until it shows up as prevailing against attacks and counter-theories. Even then you never can tell. While Wikipedia is not "perfect" let's not stake too much on a single study. If there is a body of literature out there representing a variety of opinions and perspectives, then it surely should be added (with other supporting or disconfirming citations as well).
Roy 18:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Don't be shy, Roy. Tell us what you think. ;) I don't believe anything about the article claims to have scientific proof, so I think your criticism is somewhat misplaced. There is a fairly substantial empirical literature on physical attractiveness, however, which I would argue is one facet of beauty. I think the real problem is that beauty is an incredibly difficult concept to get ahold of, making this article extremely difficult to write. The section you tagged is rather incoherent and disorganized, and tends to conflates ancient history and evolutionary psychology under the vague title of "beauty and culture." These points should probably be separated out into their own sections where they will be much easier to address. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find a citation or two. --Jcbutler 15:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Update: I've added several references and done some reorganizing. I think the theme of symmetry may help to unify some very different ideas, such as the ancient Greek view of beauty and the evolution of attractive faces. This is definitely a work in progress. --Jcbutler 18:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Beauty pageant winner image revert
It seems that User:Jcbutler has reverted the addition of an image of a "beauty" pageant winner in an encyclopedia article on "beauty"? I find that ironic. Possibly JC can explain himself or herself here. --Sadi Carnot 06:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Sadi. I deleted the image for two reasons. This article is about beauty in a general, social and philosophical sense. A picture of a beauty contest winner would seem to be a better fit for the article on beauty contests. My second, more substantial reason is that the image is blurry and of poor quality, having been cropped and magnified from a larger photograph.
- That said, I'm not entirely averse to a beauty pageant picture on this page. I think we could find a better one, and maybe place it under its own heading or perhaps "effects on society", rather than aesthetics. Any other opinions? --Jcbutler 17:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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- As to your first objection, more than 3/4th of the page is devoted to a discussion of measurements of physical beauty in people, e.g. waist-to-hip ratio, clear complexion, large eyes, symmetry, the golden ratio of facial features, averageness, lack of blemishes, a perfect nose shape, plastic surgery, taller height, eating disorders, muscular development, sexual dimorphism, etc. Need I go on? A person who wins a beauty contest, typically, possesses physical features indicative of these traits. The other half of beauty, in human life, relates to neurological development in such areas as virtues, e.g. mother Teresa, Mozart, etc.
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- As to your second objection, the list of free beauty pageant images available to use is here. If you find a better one, please suggest it.
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- Some books you might want to read on the subject of beauty, as you seem to be interested, are Nancy Etcoff’s 1999 Survival of the Prettiest – the Science of Beauty, Gillian Rhodes and Leslie Zebrowitz’s 2002 Facial Attractiveness – Evolutionary, Cognitive, and Social Perspectives, and Brian Bates and John Cleese’s 2001 The Human Face. In the latter book, for example, chapter four is on beauty. Beauty, according to this chapter, "lies in a blend of Greek philosophy, evolutionary biology, mathematical formulae, babies, sex, and personal chemistry." The pictures they use in the opening page of this chapter, to represent beauty, are actors George Clooney and Brad Pitt, model Iman, and violinist Vanessa-Mae. I hope this clarifies my position. --Sadi Carnot 19:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Minor Picture Edit
I removed a picture that was oddly protruding out of one of the first sections in this article. It was awkward, and really didn't contribute to the article that much. 24.145.221.25 05:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
