Talk:Bessie Smith

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class.

Contents 1 Recording studios 2 Birth Date 3 Gay Icon Project 4 GLBT? 5 Racist vandalism 6 Suspect census information

[edit] Recording studios

Old version said "she did not start recording till 1923 on Columbia records' Okeh subsidiary". Columbia and Okeh were seperate competing record companies in the early 1920s.christina

According to Clarence Williams, he first took Bessie Smith to the Okeh recording studios, but they rejected her as "too rough" (Okeh was featuring more show business style blues singers like Mamie Smith at the time, popular with northern African-American audiences). Williams then took Smith over to competitor Columbia Records, where she became a big hit.

-- User:Infrogmation

[edit] Birth Date

The birth-month and year of Bessie Smith can be found in the 1900 census. The 1900 census was the most accurate of all the census, listing not just the age, but the month and year of birth. Census-takers worked hard to enter accurate information. Very few mistakes were made. The huge discrepancy between the reported birthdate in biographies of Bessie Smith and the birthdate reported in the census imply that the date listed in biographies is incorrect. If there was only a discrepancy in the year, we would look at later documents before reaching a conclusion. The 1910 census would, otherwise, further confuse the issue. She is listed as a year younger; her sister's memory of Bessie's age appears to have been the error. It is possible that Viola did not know Bessie's birthdate when reporting it in 1910. She inherited the job of head of household after the death of their mother. By the time of the 1910 census, the other siblings in her charge had left, and only the youngest, Bessie, remained in her care. The discrepancy in both month and year imply an error not made by a census-taker, in math, or in keeping track of age, but in the person reporting the birth information not having true knowledge of the accurate birthdate. Bessie would have been at the mercy of her siblings for recalling her birthdate. I have noted several such situations in my work as a professional genealogist. By the way, seven children survived, not six. The seven are in the 1900 census. Four were of the age of eighteen or older at the time of the 1900 census. We know of Clarence's life beyond the census. Lula, who was seventeen at time of census, became a servant and appears in the 1910 census, having survived into adulthood.

User:Daviddaniel37

• Could you please provide a reference and/or link to the 1900 census, or any additional verification? Right now all we have is your word, and that's not enough for a Wiki-bio. By the way, Bessie was not the youngest Smith child---her brother Andrew was, as detailed in Chris Albertson's biography Bessie (2003).--Pinko1977 05:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

One must be a member of ancestry.com or go to a any family history library and look at the 1880 and 1900 census. Andrew Smith, alive at the time of the 1880 and 1900 census was 16 years older than Bessie, so the biographer was very much mistaken. I am pasting these here, copied for discussion only. My copy from ancestry to here lost a lot and then as it appears in discussion, lists turn into paragraphs. This is a direct copy of the census from ancestry.com for discussion purposes only. Cora is a daughter-in-law of Laura. We do know she was married to Andrew and they had an Andrew, Jr.

Bessie Smith Home in 1900: Chattanooga Ward 4, Hamilton, Tennessee Age: 7 Estimated birth year: abt 1893 Birthplace: Tennessee Relationship to head-of-house: Daughter Parent's Name: Laura Race: Black Occupation: View image

Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members: Name Age Laura Smith 50 Bud Smith 1 28 Andrew Smith 2 25 Viola Smith 3 23 Tennie Smith 4 19 Lula Smith 5 16 Clarence Smith 6 PERFORMED 14 Bessie Smith 7 7 Cora Smith 22

Laura Smith Home in 1880: Moulton, Lawrence, Alabama Age: 31 Estimated birth year: abt 1849 Birthplace: Alabama Relation to head-of-household: Something other than a direct relationship (Other) Father's birthplace: NC Mother's birthplace: KY Neighbors: View others on page Occupation: Servant Marital Status: Married Race: Black Gender: Female Cannot read/write:

View image Household Members: Name Age B. L. Owen 26 Tennie T. Owen 24 Fralk C Owen 3 Lydia W. Owen 7M William Smith 39 Laura Smith 31 Eva Smith 19 Gabe Smith 17 Parallee Smith 15 Francis Smith 9 Thornton Smith 6 Andrew Smith 4 Viola Smith 2 Anna Owen 8

View Original Record

View original image View blank form up arrow Save This Record Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record, or save for later evaluation. Save

Source Citation: Year: 1880; Census Place: Moulton, Lawrence, Alabama; Roll: T9_18; Family History Film: 1254018; Page: 426.3000; Enumeration District: 173; Image: 0694.

We can only assume that Thornton and Bud are one and the same as a son does not appear in 1900 without having been raised in 1880.

THE FAMILY WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS. IT IS POSSIBLE OTHER CHILDREN WERE BORN BUT DID NOT SURVIVE.

WILLIAM SMITH BORN 1840 LAURA SMITH BORN /1848/1849/1850

EVA SMITH BORN 1860 (1880 census) GABE SMITH BORN 1863 (1880 census) PARALLEE SMITH BORN 1865 (1880 census) FRANCIS SMITH BORN 1871 (1880 census) THORNTON “BUD” SMITH BORN 1874 (1880 Thornton, 1900 Bud) ANDREW SMITH BORN 1876 (1880, 1900 census) VIOLA SMITH BORN 1878 (1880, 1900 census) TENNIE 1881 (1900 census) LULA 1883 (1900 census) CLARENCE 1885 (1900 census) BESSIE 1892 (1900 census)

1910 United States Federal Census about Cora Smith Name: Cora Smith Age in 1910: 29 Estimated birth year: abt 1881 Birthplace: Tennessee Relation to Head of House: Wife Father's Birth Place: Tennessee Mother's Birth Place: Tennessee Spouse's name: Andrew Home in 1910: Chattanooga Ward 4, Hamilton, Tennessee Marital Status: Married Race: Black Gender: Female Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Andrew Smith 31 Cora Smith 29 Izora Smith 6 Andrew Smith Jr 3

This Andrew was born about 1906 or 1907. It is known that her brother Andrew performed with her. Can you quote Chris Albertson--his exact words about Andrew being younger?

Unfortunately census data of the time is notorious unreliable with respect to African-Americans. Most census-takers were white and shared common racial attitudes of their day. The statements here may be true of white families, but often were not true of Black families: "Census-takers worked hard to enter accurate information. Very few mistakes were made." "The discrepancy in both month and year [in 1910] imply an error not made by a census-taker, in math, or in keeping track of age, but in the person reporting the birth information not having true knowledge of the accurate birthdate."

I'm sorry, but a discrepancy very well might imply an error on the part of a white census-taker who had no interest in getting the details right when it came to a Black family, especially in a southern state such as Tennessee. Many African-Americans who have tried to use census data as a genealogical tool have found this problem. So why do you assume that the (white) census-taker is necessarily right and the (Black) family members -- including Smith herself, who completed a marriage license -- are wrong? Census-takers weren't gods; they were mortals, they suffered from the prejudices of their day, and unfortunately so did their work. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 18:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Point well taken. Such problems with census takers did occur. I am a professional geneaologist in Los Angeles (in yellow pages under Family Quest) and have seen some of the things they have done. By the way, I have done more African-American genealogies than white, and the white genealogies are just as messed up. However, people changed their ages for various reasons, including forgetting their age, always guessing or estimating their ages, and so on. Biographers have been mistaken about the amount of children in Bessie's family as a census taker would not make up children's names in the 1880 and 1900 census. The amount of children listed is consistent with the amount of children Laura reported giving birth to in the 1900 census. The census taker would not list Eva and Gabe and so on, making them up. A biographer probably found out about the seven living Smiths and did not question who had died. There are no obviously purposeful inconsistencies in the reporting of the Smiths in the 1880 and 1900 census. Age differences appear accidental. People did not keep track like they do today. There were no IDs or Drivers Licenses, etc. For most families, age only came up at census time. The new birthdate for Bessie seems to have been one she adopted during or by the time of the 1910 census. The 1900 census reports her birthdate as February, 1892. Her mother reported this to the census taker. In the 1910 census, she or her sister reported her age as 16. It appears that Viola and Bessie searched their memories and came up with April, 1894. This is the date she committed to memory, but not the one her own mother reported. It is important to respect great artists like Bessie Smith with evidence-based biographical material. It looks like you feel the same way or we would not be debating this. I hope that we can come to an agreement on the evidence. I am personally upset by the amount of inaccuracies in biographies of a number of great artists, especially African-American artists.

David Daniel

You are correct, Mr. Daniel. The census indicates that Clarence wasn't her oldest brother. In addition, Viola isn’t recorded as the family’s first-born child. Here is a bit more census information and an entry in the AL Marriage Index that is probably of William and Laura Smith's message. I agree that census takers may have made errors, but it seems unlikely that this error would have been repeated in every census taken between 1870 & 1900.

Source Information: Dodd, Jordan R., comp.. Alabama Marriages, 1809-1920 (Selected Counties) [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 1999. Original data: Early American Marriages: Alabama, 1800 to 1920.

Spouse 1: Will Smith

Spouse 2: Laura Owens

Marriage Date: 14 Oct 1869

Marriage Place: Lawrence

Performed By: Minister.

Surety/Perf. Name: Alfred Peters

OSPage: 201

Comment: (COLORED)

1870 Census Moulton PO Box, Lawrence Co., AL

William Smith 28 M B Minister Gospel b. AL

Laura Smith 22 F Mul Keep House $0 $75 b. AL

Fannie Smith 13 F Mul Farm L. b. KY

Bloney Smith 15 M Mul Farm L. b. KY

Evaline Smith 9 F B b. AL

Gabe Smith 6 M B b. AL

Paralee Smith 4 F B b. AL

Historybuff2283 04:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Historybuff, for the marriage record of William Smith. This provides further evidence that the three older children of William are not the children of Laura. I agree. Three census takers are not going make the same error. David Daniel

_________________________

My main reason for questioning some of the census data is that it is too often at odds with family recollections. I spoke at length to people who knew Bessie and not one of them mentioned that there had been other siblings (much less, mulattos). I spoke with Clarence's widow, Maude (surely, Clarence must have told her about his childhood), the adopted son, Jack Gee, Jr., and--in Chattanooga-- several people who had been Bessie's school mates. They all remembered Viola, Tinnie, Andrew and Clarence, some also recalled Bud and Lulu. Ruby Walker, Jack Gee's niece, spent 14 years on the road with Bessie and knew both Tinnie and Viola. She recalled hearing Bessie and her sisters talk about about the family--there was also mention of another sibling, Son, who died early. "Son" might have been what they called a boy who dies before given a name, Anyway, there was never any mention of another Andrew, Cora, or a girl named Eva. I think it is very unlikely that these family members existed and were completely forgotten by the rest of the family. I also think the census DOB is questionable, but that is not to say that the date in my book is etched in stone. Christiern Albertson 21:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Mr. Albertson. It is an honor to correspond with you. Your book on Bessie is incredible. In response to your post, I have studied over what can be known and a best theory emerges. The head of household in 1870 is William Smith. The relationship of the three children born in the 1860s to head of household does not imply that the wife of head of household is the mother. The delay in a few years between the third child and the fourth could mean that William's first wife died, or was no longer with him, and he remarried Laura. It is doubtful Laura would have been young and would have given birth to children with a five-year spread between Paralee and Francis. Your mention of "Son" in your book "Bessie" being the eighth (not chronologically) of the ten children Laura reports having given birth to during the 1900 census amounts to us being able to account for nine of the children. This includes Francis. The implication of the facts appears to be that one other unknown child was born to William and Laura besides "Son" and died very young. That child is quite likely to have been born between Viola and Tennie. The spread in time plus the age of the children at the time of the birth and death of a sibling would explain them not mentioning this child when they mentioned "Son." If we see that Francis was in the 1880 census but not the 1900 census, and we synthesize that with the report in the 1900 census of ten births and seven still living, we are left with the probability that Francis died sometime after the 1880 census. Depending on who was interviewed through their remaining years, it is still somewhat of a mystery why Francis was not mentioned by anyone. Andrew and his wife, Cora, are listed with the rest of the siblings in the 1900 census. In the 1910 census, Andrew and Cora are listed with two children, Izora and Andrew, Jr. As far as the birth-month and year of Bessie, her mother (1900 census) was almost as accurate as her father or both (consistencies in 1870 and 1880 census). Birth-month is usually remembered by mothers, in my experience. The report by Laura during the 1900 census of Bessie being born July, 1892 appears to have greater credibility, and Viola's report may reflect her best attempt at memory of Bessie's birth year. It may be that by 1910, family members had established a birth date for themselves that sometimes did not match their birth date. It has been my experience as a genealogist that many inconsistencies are found between genealogical evidence and written family histories and myths. The closeness of the seven children probably explains a number of discussions of events that included members of the seven with the exclusion of mentions of the others. It is interesting they never mentioned their older half-siblings or their full-sibling, Francis. The older three are mentioned in two censuses. David Daniel

P.S. The two mulato children are obviosuly not the children of William and Laura Smith. The three children of William (Evaline, Gabe, and Paralee) who are not children of Laura were more than likely not a part of the lives of Bessie later on. By the time she was of age, they were in their forties. The shocking thing is how they forgot to mention Francis, their full-sibling.

Years of birth are approximate for the first four. Evaline (1861) Gabe (1864) Paralee (1866) Francis (1871) Thornton “Bud” (April, 1872) Andrew (February, 1875) Viola (May, 1877) Possible "child" Tennie (named after Tennie Owen) (February, 1881) Lula (December, 1883) Clarence (October, 1885) “Son” (1888) Bessie (July, 1892)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 22:15, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] GLBT?

I've never heard anywhere that Bessie Smith was gay or considered to be a gay icon. Therefore, I am removing this article from the GLBT categories, pending verification. --ZekeMacNeil 22:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bessie Smith was well known, even in her lifetime, to have been bisexual. Perhaps the onus is on you to do some verification before editing the article! Flapdragon 00:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure at what point Bessie became a gay icon, but in 1997 the lesbian poet Jackie Kay wrote a book about her in Oulines, "the first series of books explore and portray the various and often unexpected ways in which homosexuality has informed the life and creative work of influential gay and lesbian artists, writers, singers, dancers, composers and actors of our time" (Bessie Smith, Absolute Press). Chris Albertson (Bessie: Empress of the Blues, 1972) writes: "It is not known at what stage in her life Bessie began to embrace her own sex. Some have assumed that Ma Rainey, who was similarly inclined, initiated her, but this theory is supported by no more evidence than the improbable story of Bessie's 'kidnapping'. But by late 1926, when Lillian Simpson entered her life, Bessie's sexual relationships included women." Flapdragon 00:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Racist vandalism

I found this page vandalized today merely because i was linking to it from the Luck page, specialically, Songs about luck / "Lady Luck Blues" by Bessie Smith. The vandalism had been up for hours. To me this is shameful. I know there are bots and humans trying to revert racist vandlaism at WP. Yet i see this sort of vandlaism all the time -- primarily anti-Black vandalism, given the primary topics about which i am writing (folklore, folk magic, and folk music). I feel that WP is inadequately protecting these pages. Here is what i eliminated this morning, and i want people to see it, to red it, to understand how disturbing it is:

She is racist against blue people. Her favorite quote is, "Smurfs are evil!" She believed all were evil and belonged to the group called SSS, Smurfs Suck Society. Here their plan was to kill all Smurfs by burning their houses and putting a burning wooden "x" outside the remains. Her death was tradgic. She was in a Porta-pot when she fell into the hole where it contained the blue chemical. Her skin was died 100% blue and now it was her turn. The SSS turned against her by murdering her. They tore of all her legs and arms. shortly after, she was lit on fire and left for the cats to eat.

And this is nothing compared to the racist interjections that continually mar the Tuskegee Airmen pages.

How many times per day / week / month / year can a page be vandalized bfore it is granted semi-protection or potection? Do the admins and the WP Foundation really wnt the WP to be visibily marred by such racist material at any given time?

Yes, i realize the nobility of the idea of a geek-driven collective encyclopedia, but the truth is, there are people in the world who are, to varying degrees, racially biased sociopaths -- and we know exactly who their targets are. Once a page has been vandalized as many times as this page has, souldn't it be accorded the protection of allowing only registered users to contribute?

I know, some feel that this is "admitting defeat" or "not upholding the freedom of expression that is at the core of WP's mission" -- but what about the young READER who comes here to learn about Bessie Smith? What about the injuries to the emotions of those who come here to learn about Black heroes and are -- on a daily basis -- subjected to shit-talk by racists?

I realize that this is a big issue, and that i am only one contributor, and a fairly new one at that, but take a look at the hostory of this page. It tells a story. You may think it is the story of valiant WP anti-vandals controlling the evil hodes of vandals, but i see a different story: it is a story of young balck girls coming to this page to read about a cultural icon of their own race and finding racist trash talk -- again. And again. And again.

Who is WP for -- the brave bots and editors who pat themselves on the back for fighting off vandals -- or the readers?

Just questions. I welcome responses here. This page is now on my watchlist.

Catherineyronwode 17:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suspect census information

I find the census info suspicious, it does not jive with my own research of the past 4 decades. That Bessie's siblings had left home by 1910 is definitely wrong, and there is more misinformation. Where the two mulatto children came from is another mystery--I suspect it is just another instance of the vandalism this entry seems to attract. I hope nobody here minds if I remove such unsubstantiated embroidery.

Christiern Albertson 22:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)