Talk:Betting (poker)

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Contents 1 Strategic impact of betting 2 Jargon in "Dead button rule" 3 Straddles 4 complicated?

[edit] Strategic impact of betting

This article describes the common terms, rules, and procedures in the game, but does not cover the strategic impact of betting.

I'm not so sure this is still a good idea. Often I want to look up something like the strategic impact of the ante structure, so I go to ante and it just redirects here. Or I may want to learn how no-limit hold'em is played differently from limit hold'em. The problem is, the statement quoted above seems to discourage discussion of strategy of betting in poker, because all links to betting terms just link here, and here we have this "no strategy" thing, so it tends to stay that way. We have all the other bases covered pretty well by now, so I say we axe this sentence and start discussing tactical and strategic ramifications. Anything that gets too big can be split off. - furrykef (Talk at me) 10:45, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agree. -Grick 06:49, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

"How to" guides and game strategy tactics belong on Wikibooks:Poker strategy guide, since they are often a matter of opinion. I think this article is at the correct level right now, but I think a poker Wikibook is a great idea. -- Netoholic @ 08:19, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)

I started the poker wikibook some time ago, so far as starting off a confusing article on hand rankings and writing a poor article on pot odds can be considered starting it. I mean, certainly we needn't have extensive discussion of strategy here. But if there is to be no discussion of the ramifications, tactics, and strategy, then you must leave out basic principles like how every hand starts as a battle for the antes/blinds, you must leave out notions like check-raising (since it's a tactic rather than a form of bet), etc... I mean certainly this shouldn't turn into a strategy book, but it doesn't harm to have just a little strategic information. I mean, why describe raising if you don't describe why somebody might want to do it? Sure, a whole chapter can be written on raising (and it's certainly been done), but it doesn't hurt to discuss the basics. Otherwise, it's like, "you can raise the bet, whoop de doo." - furrykef (Talk at me) 09:31, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right, I think it's a matter of balance. I just think the current article does a pretty good job. -- Netoholic @ 14:38, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)

I like the factual tone of the article. However, I think there are some "factual" items that probably deserve treatment in this article, namely rules for straddles and missed blind rule variations. Anyone else think that stuff belongs here? If so, I can take a crack at some descriptions.--Toms2866 01:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I added discussion of straddles and blind/button rules when players bust out of the blinds. It seems kind of tedious, but this stuff is an important part of blind-structure games. --Toms2866 22:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

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I reverted an edit that changed the text to use singular they, not because I'm one of those overly pedantic folks who think it's always wrong, but because I think in this particular case (with a specific referent) the original text is better. --LDC 21:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jargon in "Dead button rule"

Not knowing a lot about poker, I am confused by the description of the "Dead button rule." What does "the big blind is posted by the player due for it" mean? What is "busting out"? PenguiN42 17:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Big blind is now wikied in the article. Busting out means eliminated because they have lost all their chips, but in this context could mean just "leaves the game" for whatever reason. 2005 19:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The sad fact is that even experienced players often find these rules complicated (especially the moving button rule). The rule variations represent trade-offs between complexity and equity. The simplified moving button rule is the most simple, but also the least equitable (a player could miss both the big and small blinds). The moving button rule is the most complex, but also the most equitable (no blinds are missed, the button always moves). The dead button rule is popular (especially in tournaments) because it represents a middle ground between the moving button and simplified moving button rules. If you are new to the game and just playing with friends for fun, consider using the simplified button rule.--Toms2866 06:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Even after reading the article, I too do not understand the moving button rule. Surely there must be an easier way to explain it? chunkyasparagus 21:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I expounded a lot on this rule. Hopefully its clearer now. —Kymacpherson 04:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Simplified moving button rule: I have never seen this in online play. The dead button/California rule is usual, and I have seen the Moving button/Nevada rule used, but I have only seen the simplified moving button rule used in single-table tournaments. — MSchmahl… 02:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Straddles

I've never seen a "sleep" allowed in a casino, but I've seen it played in home games. My take on it was that it gives too much advantage to the player that makes the straddle; its like a mini-raise with impunity—the player can pull his money back if there is a raise in front of him, which realistically removes all the risk of straddling. I'm guessing thats why its not played in casinos; if it were, players would be sleep straddling literally every hand. If its listed here, the description should at least be qualified by a statement that it is not played in real money games. On the other hand, there probably should be a description of a "rock" (obligatory straddle) somewhere on this page or some other article, because that's played in casinos a lot and I've even played in a casino that enforced the rock rules. —Kymacpherson 21:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind obscure home game stuff listed, but this literally has not one reference on the Internet besides this article (and clones of it). That's a few miles past trivial to me. Since it can't be cited if someone wants to make a paranthetical-type sentence about it, fine, but it certainly doesn't merit a peer heading as a type of straddle of similar importance to the others since it is literally not mentioned online except here. 2005 00:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because you haven't run across it in your limited experience doesn't make it an "obscure home game" thing. Check out page 86 of "Cooke's Rules of Real Poker" by Roy Cooke and John Bond (sorry, they only have a dead tree version). Poker also predates the Internet by many years, so I'm not surprised that a few things won't be found online yet. Also, the "risk free" interpretation above isn't quite right--yes, the sleeper is "off" if there's a raise in front of it, but otherwise it's "on" and must be left in and acts as a regular straddle. In other words, it's just like a regular under-the-gun straddle, but only operates when the player making it becomes essentially under-the-gun by virtue of no action in front of him. I've played in games with sleepers allowed in many public cardrooms, and know many other players who have as well--most of whom have been playing for 20 years or more, as have I. I suggest you defer to the expert on this one--and that would be me. --LDC 01:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it wouldn't, so please save the presumptions. Casinos don't use this, since it makes no sense, and even if some outback place did, the fact it isn't refered to at all makes the terminology suspect rather than the actual practice. A cite from one cardroom somewhere should not be impossible. You've written many good articles here, but you need to defer to Wikipedia guidelines, in terms of citations and no original research, and also not make presumptions that your expertise is greater than others, which it most certainly is not. (The Cooke citations is plentty to keep an obscure term, but without it it certainly should not have been in the article.) 2005 02:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify my point about the strategic significance—the button should sleep absolutely every hand. If there's a raise in front of him, he can get away scott free; if not, he has bought the right to act last in the opening betting round in hand where he already has the positional advantage over the blinds in later rounds. (If you would agree with me that raising from button with any two cards is already a legitimate tactic, then clearly sleeping from the button is an even more powerful play) Likewise sleeping from the cutoff or other late position seems obviously advantageous too. —Kymacpherson 12:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a good portion of the Wikipedia guidelines, too, back when there were just a few hundred of us. Most people don't know that because the earliest versions of the Wikipedia software didn't permanently archive the oldest articles, so the early major contributors don't show up in the stats. As far as "expert" status goes, I'll stack my experience and expertise in casino poker room practices against anyone on the planet, and that includes the authors of the best books on the subject, most of whom I know (at least the west coasters--my experience is admittedly mostly in Nevada, California, and Washington). But that's really beside the point anyway; Ky is right about the strategic advantage being unfair, and that's why most cardrooms don't allow it anymore. But this article isn't about casino poker--it's about poker, and shouldn't be limited to present casino practices. As far as "terminology" goes, what poker players call these things and always have called them is "sleepers". I really don't see why failure to find the term on the web should automatically make it suspect when it's a well-known term in the industry. --LDC 13:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well now this starts to make more sense, but also raises another question. What you described are not "sleeepers". I thought you were saying Cooke mentions in his second version of the book about something called a "sleeper straddle". "Sleepers" are different, and that is available in the original Caro/Cooke book. I don't know what this thing you are describing is, but it isn't a "sleeper", so I'm adding the definition of a sleeper with the cite. There may be some home game rules where you can "take back" a bet, or is live, but that is not a sleeper. I also took out the "as in hold 'em or Omaha" statement since it mistakenly implies flop games, when Draw games can use straddles, when they are blind games rather than ante games. 2005 20:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always used the terms interchangeably; Cooke's book admittedly describes them badly, and there may be rule variations. His book describes straddles in general in a section titled "Straddles and sleepers", and does not clarify the latter at all well. What I described is the way I used to play them in small clubs in California in the 80s (which was lowball--you are also correct about it not being a flop game thing). --LDC 06:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I added sleepers because they are permitted in the "semi-pro" private games I frequent, and appeared to be well-known to all of the serious players. I simply assumed that they were well known in general. I have no idea how common the sleeper is across the country. 2005 has a valid point that references for the sleeper are thin to non-existent. If consensus is that they are obscure, I don't feel strongly about including sleepers in the article. Changing gears a bit...the discussion above seems to occasionally confuse the Mississippi and sleeper straddles, at least my understanding of them. The Mississippi buys last action, the sleeper does not. Unlike the sleeper, the Mississippi cannot be pulled back; action starts the left of the Mississippi (e.g., the SB if there is a Mississippi on the button). The sleeper is simply an action-inducer, basically declaring "My action will be at least this amount if action gets to me without a raise." Action still begins at UTG when a sleeper is laid. Players between the BB and sleeper can still limp, but are aware that a raise is coming if action gets to the sleeper without a raise. If there is no raise when action gets to the sleeper, the sleeper may not be pulled back. As far as I can see, there's no particular advantage to the sleeper. I think the Mississippi is common enough to warrant mention even if consensus is that the sleeper is not.--Toms2866 22:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] complicated?

does anyone else find this article overly complex? I am especially interested to hear from those who don't play poker - Abscissa 17:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)