Talk:Bhutan

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Contents 1 Bhutan photos available with free license 2 Page issues: 3 Removed passage 4 Repository of images 5 The immigration issue 6 Can someone clarify this? 7 Spelling 8 Addition of NPOV tag to the History of Bhutan section and a specifically unmarked sub-section 9 Bhutan and television 10 NAME section -- origin and use of "Bhutan"? 11 Introduction 12 Contradiction with Jigme Singye Wangchuck 13 Quotations 14 Name 15 Wildlife of Bhutan 16 Page protection

[edit] Bhutan photos available with free license

Stumbled across some nice Creative-Commons licensed photos on Flickr that we can use here: http://www.flickr.com/creativecommons/by-2.0/tags/Bhutan/ Someone who knows these articles better might know the best place for them. — Catherine\^talk 18:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page issues:

Hi to avoid needless reverts, I request people who are reverting to take care of the following issues:

1. Lack of sources:
   1. Data released by the Ministry of agriculture showed that the country had a forest cover of 64 percent as of October 2005.. -- Where can we find this data? Source needed
   2. Roughly 20% percent of the population ... -- Source needed
   3. An extensive census done in June of 2005 resulted in a further reduction of the population figure to 554,000. -- Source needed
2. Poor =History= section. The history section should be written in a summary. Instead it rambles on and on about Bhutan's immigrant problems. Move that to the History of Bhutan and summarise the same here.
3. Similarly details about archery in the culture section.
4. Dates should be unwikified

I request you to take care of these problems to avoid the embarassment of getting the article listed for removal of its featured status. Else I'll have to make the necessary reversion in a week's time. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed passage

I took this out of the ==Name== section: "Historians have suggested that it may have originated in variations of the Sanskrit words Bhota-ant (the end of Bhot – a variation of the Indian Sanskrit word "Buddha" meaning enlightened, another word for Tibet), or Bhu-uttan (highlands)." because it was unsourced and doubtful. Is "Buddha" really another word for Tibet? More likely, the author of this passage has confused "Buddha" with Bod, which is the Tibetan word for Tibet. That, incidentally, seems like a far more likely etymology for "Bhutan", especially considering the name of the neighboring Bhutia people. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there is a reference for it. I'll take a look around. =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repository of images

Greetings,

I have made an Asian repository of images, similar to the one that exists for Europe. Please complete the part pertaining to this country as you see fit, preferably similar to those of France, Britain et al:

Wikipedia:List of images/Places/Asia

Thanx.--Zereshk 14:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The immigration issue

The reconstruction of the immigration issues on this page is heavily slanted towards the official Bhutan Government version of events

• • • i think the above comment itself reflects the assumption that anything anti-immigration is obviously pro-government. besides, being pro or anti-government does not automatically mean the contents are true or false. ***

Some information about the Nepali refugee's version should be included. Some details on the problems can be seen here http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/publ/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDCOI&id=3ae6a6c08&page=publ http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2003/7/20_7.html

• • • even the supposedly 'neutral' reports on Bhutan's immigration problems, such as by UNHCR are faulty in my opinion. Their reports have mixed up human rights issues with citizenship issues. when it is so difficult for the parties involved to themselves distinguish a citizen from an illegal immigrant (due to the widespread forgeries of the immigration documents plus the politicized nature of the problem), it is unfortunate that UNHCR assumes it has already figured out who is who. so you should either have the 'true' facts out, or have both sides of the story, a la CNN giving Democrats and Republicans equal airtime. ***

[edit] Can someone clarify this?

In the history section there is the statement:

"After India gained independence from the United Kingdom on 15 August 1947, Bhutan became of one of the first countries to recognize India's independence.

Since Britain was no longer going to be in the region a similar treaty was signed 8 August 1949 with the newly independent India."

I don't fully understand this, and it is also poorly written. I'm not familiar with the topic, or I would fix it myself.

• In the version that appeared on the front page as a new FA last year it seemed to be much clearer. Was it wrong? Or could we reinstate it? Surely the offer of a merger with India is noteworthy, if true?

"After India gained independence from Britain in August 1947, kingdoms such as Bhutan were given the option to remain independent or to join the Indian Union. Bhutan chose to remain independent, and on 8 August 1949, Bhutan's independence was recognised by India."

• "Since Britain was no longer going to be in the region" needs rewriting, it sounds amateurish.
• Why is that in two paragraphs? Surely the word "similar" links it closely to the previous paragraph.
• I couldn't understand what the current version even means. If the earlier FA version is factually correct, then at least that is clear.

Can someone please fix this? Thanks, Walkerma 03:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup, the text has deteriorated over the past 10 months. I support a revert to the version that had passed FAC. I'll explain the situation here:

• (Note: The geographical context for the following refers to the following countries in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan.)
• Although it is historically stated that the British ruled India, there were many independent kingdoms that were not or never part of British India. Many of them however, were suzerains of British Empire.
• After the British quit India, these kingdoms were given the option to a) join India b) join Pakistan or c) remain independent.
• Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim and a few others chose to be independent.
• However only the above three were recognised by India, the rest were annexed by either country. Once India recognised Bhutan's independence, the world also recognised Bhutan as an independent nation. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Can you make the necessary fixes? Walkerma 02:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

See also: Political integration of India

[edit] Spelling

Should the spelling on the article be British style?Cameron Nedland 14:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, because the English taught in Bhutan is BE. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I changed some of it to fit the British model.Cameron Nedland 20:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of NPOV tag to the History of Bhutan section and a specifically unmarked sub-section

I have just split the section on History of Bhutan into different sections according to timeline and have added an NPOV tag into the sub-section that describes the modern history and specifically about the Immigration issues regarding the Nepalese immigration. This section makes a number of (seemingly) biased assertions attributed to the Bhutanese government, in what seems like think-tank and policy matters without quotations or references. Secondly it seems very biased against the Nepalese community of Immigrants in general, and verbally blames this population for what it calls the destruction of Tibetan Culture. These are both in clear violation of NPOV policy. Also, it alleges that

"Thus a group of several thousand left and settled in refugee camps. The UNHCR aid proivded to these people attracted the poor from border areas of Nepal, who claimed to be refugees as well to receive aid. Thus the initial number of people in the camps ballooned in a year to about 100,000. The issue remains unresolved today, with Bhutan unable to repatriate refugees as they are unable to identify who are actual ones and who aren't. The refugees offer ownership of the national citizen identity cards as proof of citizenry. The government contends that there has been widespread forging of these documents."

First, this is not referenced or sources not cited, secondly the tone and intention of the editor(s) seems specifically hagulatory, demeanistic, and ill-intentioned towards the Nepalese community, especially in the absence of citations.

I therefore think this section of the article is in violation of the NPOV policy and have added the tag. I am not competent on matters to do with Bhutan but please have a look at this ection and if you can help, please improve it. Thanks130.209.6.40 16:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

you might want to read this article by Prof Leo Rose: http://www.bhutantimes.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=421&forum=10&post_id=3537#forumpost3537

sorry i couldn't find it anywhere else.

I agree we can do better than the above prose, but more importantly, the main Bhutan article page is not the place to have the knock-down drag-out royals/ngalop vs democracy/christian/illegal alien/nepali fight. I came to realize a while ago that we need a separate article on this topic. It's a rich topic, with history that goes back to the early 19th century and plenty of blame to go around to make the reading spicy. Perhaps "Bhutanese refugee crisis" is a title that would be acceptable to both sides.

its history goes back to the 'late 19th century' not the 'early'. there is a big difference.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.144.138.116 (talk • contribs).

Creating a new article would not only allow the topic to be treated in greater depth, but would also keep these half-hearted efforts from cropping up again and again all over the Bhutan pages (this topic already has grown like topsy on the main Bhutan page, is rediscussed again on the demographics page, occurs again in the History page proper, etc.). I'm too busy at present but maybe someone else out there is inspired to have a go at it. The world would be a better place.  technopilgrim 17:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bhutan and television

I would very much lremakeike to see a discussion of the effects of Bhutan's recent decision to permit TV after banning it for many years. The country is extraordinary isolated as it is, so much so that stalkers probably couldn't follow anyone there. But satellite TV overcomes such remoteness all too easily. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback 19:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NAME section -- origin and use of "Bhutan"?

If the native population uses Druk Yul or whatever, who originally named Bhutan "Bhutan" (does it appear as such in some ancient Sanskrit texts for example)?

Who uses this name in the region today (is that the name of the country in Hindi for example?), and from what specific source did "Bhutan" enter English as the name of the country?

Also assuming there has been/is some non-English use of the name, we could use a second "native" IPA pronunciation (with aspirated B certainly).

[edit] Introduction

I was wondering what in the world is the point of this sentence: "Bhutan is the smallest non-Arab nation in mainland Asia."

What is the point!? It seems so trivial, that I really question why it's even in the article at all. If no one objects, I will delete it. Perakhantu 07:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I was doing research on Bhutan and noticed that the CIA World Factbook has a very different population number than what was listed in the introduction to the article. Without deleting the previous figure, I have added the Factbook numbers. 208.178.18.185 20:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

. . .and only afterward did I notice the Demographics section. Sorry. I cut and pasted it there instead. 208.178.18.185 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction with Jigme Singye Wangchuck

At the end of section 2.3 this article claims, "Jigme Singye Wangchuck ascended to the throne at the age of 16 after the death of his father, Dorji Wangchuck." However, at the beginning of the Jigme Singye Wangchuck article it says he ascended to the throne at the age of 17. Perhaps someone more knowledgable than myself could resolve this apparent contradiction. Jsaxton86

[edit] Quotations

Please do not add quotations to this article. Quotations are meant for wikiquote =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I've changed the native name in the article - the reason being that the version given is, in fact, modern Tibetan, not Dzongkha. I changed it to Dzongkha (and I'm sure of it here, check out 'Dzongkha', by George van Driem), but also added a transliteration of the spelling in the Tibetan alphabet. BovineBeast 01:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

please give more details. I added what is given in the CIA website. Ybgursey 01:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure what the CIA website gives, but it's neither a direct transliteration of the written Dzongkha/Tibetan ('Brug Rgyal-khab) nor a transcription of the spoken Dzongkha (Dru Gäkhap). I tend to think that it's modern Tibetan, since 'Druk' would be the modern Tibetan equivalent of Dzongkha 'Dru', though I don't know enough to be absolutely sure what version of Tibetan it is.

The problem in deciding what to put here is the diglossic situation that Dzongkha is. Firstly, the Dzongkha script reflects the pronunciation of words in classical Tibetan times, as does the Tibetan script, so they're pretty close to being the same, except in a few grammatical respects. So you could transcribe the Dzongkha as Tibetan mistakenly quite easily, which may well have been what the CIA did. BovineBeast 12:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

the form given in the CIA site seems to have some native usage, as there is a "Druk Air", the national airline. Ybgursey 04:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

But it's still not Dzongkha. Which is what we've got down as the official language BovineBeast 09:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyway pelase restore the native script name Ybgursey 20:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, "Druk" (`brug) in modern Lhasa Tibetan is pronounced [ɖ,ʐuʔ] ([ɖ,ʐ] is a sound which vaguely resembles "dr" in English). My point is, the "k" isn't really clearly pronounced. I wish, by the way, we could get some phonemic informmation for Dzongkha in Wikipedia.— Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 08:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

From what I know (and admittedly it's not that much), dr in Dzongkha is a simple retroflex most of the time. And I don't think the k is even pronounced as a glottal stop. BovineBeast 15:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wildlife of Bhutan

Kindly contribute to this article when you get time, and request others too.

Thanks

Atulsnischal 00:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page protection

This page has been subject to a lot of vandalism - I'm going to suggest that editing be limited to registered users.Sylvain1972 16:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)