Talk:Billinge and Winstanley Urban District
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[edit] Recent Changes to the main article
Local government section: Someone has inserted that " 'Billinge Higher End' and 'Winstanley' form part of the 'Orrell' ward in the 'Makerfield' constituency". In point of fact, there is no such thing as a 'constituency' in local government. Constituencies elect MPs to the Commons. Also, why has the stuff on townships and neighbourhoods in the Metropolitan B. of Wigan been deleted. I suggest you check the council's official website. They exist and they are here to stay. Yozzer66 22:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Billinge and Winstanley were part of the civic Parish of Wigan. It would have required an act of Parliament for Billinge and/or Winstanley to have become administratively seperate. This only happened in the 1890s with the creation of the Urban District Council. Yozzer66 22:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Higher End and Winstanley (west of the M6) are in the Orrell ward. (see ONS/wards/orrell). It is recommended that, from April, 2007, Orrell 'ward' will be part of the Makerfield constituency along with Abram, Ashton in Makerfield, Bryn, Hindley, Hindley Green, Winstanley, and Worsley Mesnes. A 'Constituency' is very much part of 'local government', seeing as a 'constituency' is made up of local council 'wards'. The 'constituents', from these wards, elect the MP for the 'constituency.
Neighbourhoods of the 'Metropolitan Borough of Wigan' do, as you say, 'exist'. They have 'existed' for a long time. But an article on 'Billinge and Winstanley' (which, as we both know, are two separate places) is not the place to list the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan's other neighbourhoods.
Billinge is a 'civil parish'. Winstanley is a 'civil parish'. Wigan is an 'Ecclesiastical Parish', which is a 'church thing', and is in the 'diocese of Liverpool', another 'church thing'. Billinge and Winstanley 'civil parishes' are in Wigan 'Ecclesiastical Parish'.
Billinge was an urban district of Lancashire, not an urban district of Wigan!
Wigan Council, indeed, any council, will put what suits 'them' on a their own website.
I know these things because I read written, archived, historical, factual information, not opinion posted on the internet sites. Councils come and go, Billinge Hill will still be there in another thousand years.
[edit] Other Comments
much of this article is word for word identical with text at [1] and [2] Morwen - Talk 07:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)p
[edit] Wardness
I should be interested to know when this was a ward. It isn't at present, and wasn't prior to the new ward boundaries coming into effect in 2004, according to the boundary committee's report on the re-warding. These boundaries dated from 1979... So this leaves the time period from 1973 to 1979 - in 1973 temporary ward boundaries were used, based on existing wards: is quite possible that Billinge and Winstanley constituted a ward then. Not sure where to get this info from, since there was no census in this timeframe. Morwen - Talk 10:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC) ---
- Notwithstanding which council calls the tune, the village of Billinge is still, and always has been, in the same place. When another council takes control, the village is not lifted from it's foundations and transplanted elsewhere. Billinge still lies between Wigan and St.Helens, in the County of Lancashire, England. Winstanley is another place, lying west of Billinge. There is no place named Billinge and Winstanley, they are two seperate places. This Billinge and Winstanley article should be scrapped, the Billinge Higher End and Billinge Chapel End combining to form Billinge, as one article.
The note about Billinge Hospital is wrong. The hospital acted as maternity hospital for the surrounding area, not for Wigan as is suggested.
And certainly not for the whole of Wigan Metropolitan Borough, as that includes parts of Salford and Warrington, each with it's own facilities.
Billinge Hospital did serve as the principle maternity hospital for the Wigan Borough. People outside the Borough were born there, however Wigan Borough's maternity facilities are now located at the infirmary.
I can confirm that Billinge Maternity Hospital was an NHS Hospital and was, therefore, available to any NHS registered patient in the surrounding area requiring maternity care, regardless of them living in Wigan or not. However, it was administered by Wigan NHS Trust.
- This article and the Billinge Chapel End article should NOT be one article as they are two different places in two different borough's. The hospital and anything else to do with 'Higher End' has nothing whatsoever to do with Chapel End. These points are becoming ridiculous, if you were born in Billinge Hospital you a from Wigan, NOT from the village of 'Billinge'. 99.9% of those living in the 'Borough' of Wigan were born in Billinge Hospital. The hospital served as the principle maternity facility for the Wigan area until its close in 2004, when maternity facilities were moved to the nearest hospital, Wigan Infirmary. People in other areas outside of the Borough such as Billinge Chapel End and Skelmersdale were born in Billinge Hospital.
You are very small minded to think that Billinge Hospital was exclusively for Wiganers. It also served a large part of St.Helens, Rainford, Garswood, Haydock, etc.. When the hospital closed in 2004, 'it' was not 'moved' to Wigan Infirmary, it simply 'closed' and several other hospitals took over it's workload. Also, Wigan 'Metropolitan' Borough, as is now, stretches far from Wigan and, therefore, the new facility at Albert Edward Infirmary does not cover the whole of the borough.
- For the last time, the majority of people in Wigan were born in Billinge Hospital (and if you were you are originally a Wiganer). It was the principle maternity facility for Wigan,(not the whole borough, as those people in the places near Salford would be born in Salford/Manchester) but people who live in other areas such as Skem, Rainford etc etc were born there. The new facility at the infirmary now handles the maternity cases in Wigan that would previously have gone to Billinge Hospital. What is it that nobody gets about this?, it really is not that difficult.
Are you saying that all the people from St.Helens, Rainford, Skelmersdale, Haydock, Garswood, etc. are all 'Wiganers' ? Are you daft ? Need I ask ??
- No but seeing as the majority of St Helens was not born in Billinge Hospital (isnt it Whiston) they have nothing to worry about. If you were born in Billinge Hospital you were BORN (note how I put in the word "originally" or did you just ignore that?)in Wigan, you dont have to live in the place you were born you know.
Question: 'If a Dog is born in a stable, is it a Horse?
Whiston Hospital Maternity Unit provides for most of St.Helens now that Billinge has closed. Whiston, if you don't know, is a long way past St.Helens and St.Helens Borough, like Wigan Borough, is now a big place. If you lived in, let's say, Astley, would you want to come to Wigan for hospital care? I think not. Likewise, if you lived in Garswood, would you want to go to Whiston? Don't be small minded. It's a big world out there, look through the big window, the world doesn't revolve around Wigan!
- I, as Im sure you are, am getting tired of this topic of discussion. Billinge Hospital was the maternity facility for Wigan (not the whole borough) and its closeby areas (and some other surrounding areas). When the hospital closed, the cases in Wigan and its closeby areas started going to the infirmary those from the other other surrounding areas started going to hospital's near to them. Those born in Billinge Hospital prior to its close were born 'in Wigan'. Those that then went home to areas outside of the Wigan area after being born are now 'from' the area in which they live now, but were not born in those areas, those that went home to places in the Wigan area are still 'from Wigan'. Please let this be the last on the subject. The article is accurate and explains the situation clearly by using the words "for Wigan and other surrounding areas". I hope we can all agree. Thanks
I will not agree to something which I know is factually wrong. Anyone born in Wigan Infirmary will, undoubtedly, have been born 'in' Wigan. Anyone born in Billinge Hospital will have been born 'in' Billinge, not Wigan. Taken to the letter, they would have been born in Billinge, in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, but only had they been born there after 1974 as, previously to then it would have been just 'Billinge'. Or, alternatively, why not insist on anybody born in Billinge Hospital, after 1974, must have been born in Manchester ?
That is quite possibly the most ridiculous question ever asked. Im not going to insult your intelligence by giving an answer, however I will say that to refer to those born in Billinge Hospital (quite rightly as you point out after 1974), as being born 'in Wigan', is most definitely acceptable as 100 per cent of those born in that circumstance refer to themselves as being born 'in Wigan'. As an example I think we may have to start describing only those born in the 'City of London' itself (as opposed to the Metropolitan area) as being 'from London'.
I have friends from near Bromley, Kent, and they get offended if anyone refers to them as 'Londoners' or 'Cockneys'. Mind you, they say that the only people who can't cope with them NOT being from London, even though they talk like it and live, are the people they meet when they come to visit us, near Wigan.
Seeing as they are from Kent, who would call them 'Cockneys'? Why would anyone in Wigan think someone from Kent was a Cockney?. What has this got to do with people being born in Billinge Hospital (after 1974) rightly calling themselves Wiganers?
[edit] Billinge-and-Winstanley does not exist
These are two seperate places completely. Winstanley is in Wigan too, it borders on Goose Green, if you walk up highfield grange, the border is is somewhere between Clapgate Lane and Melrose Drive (you can't see it though, it's invisible). People who shop at Winstanley shops and also have a pint in 'the Poacher' consider themselves as part of Wigan town not Wigan Borough as this article describes and they certainly do not consider themselves as living in 'Billinge-and-Winstanly'
82.33.171.111 15:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- How true! Billinge and Winstanley doesn't exist. However, 'people who shop at Winstanley shops and also have a pint in 'the Poacher'...' are free to 'consider' themselves 'part' of wherever they wish. Unfortunately, Winstanley is a place called Winstanley and has been for a long time, so, as long as they are shopping and having a pint in Winstanley, that's exactly where they are part of. Winstanley, in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. Not Wigan town. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.192.242.18 (talk • contribs).
- OK. Well before we organise a split, if that is needed, we need to confirm what is what. This is what I understand: Billinge was split in 1974 into two areas: Higher End in the Met Borough of Wigan and Billinge village in the Met Borough of St Helens. There is already a main Billinge, Merseyside article, so do we need one for Higher End and one for Winstanley? I have marked the page with a split tag so please do not edit it until we have sorted this out. We can then create the new stub articles and correct redirects as necessary. Regan123 21:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Right, after doing a little more research on this seeing as I am hungover and have nothing better to do. I've located that the Goose Green - Winstanley border is between Sturton Ave (Goose Green) and Dunscore Road (Winstanley) see arrow in this link
- I find the notion utterly ridiculous that while walking up Highfield Grange upon passing Sturton Ave, I actually leave Wigan. That's just not right.
82.33.171.111 23:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you go to Chester, you can jump from England into Wales. I'm only giving a description of what a 'border' is. Sometimes, as in the Todmorden case, borders can run through buildings! Sometime in your life, you're gonna have to leave Wigan!!!!
In fact, you leave Wigan as soon as you cross the River Douglas, as that is the 'border' between Wigan and Pemberton. When Pemberton was included into Wigan Borough, in 1894, the Borough Border was moved to the point you show on your link. As you come towards Wigan on the A49 you cross that border where the sign, saying 'Wigan', is, that's just after the M6 entry/exit island at marus bridge.
Regan, unless you are local it is hard to picture, but Billinge was not split into two areas. Please go onto Google Map/Satellite to see for yourself.
- Alright, lets start with what is / was Billinge-and-Winstanley. An area, parish, civil parish? Regan123 21:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's been called 'Billinge with Winstanley' and 'Billinge and Winstanley'. It discribes two council wards, but it's not an actual place. Part of it is in Orrell, or should I say Far Moor? This is an extract from the 'Greater Manchester Gazetteer' ... Billinge and Winstanley Urban District (part only,. namely the Billinge Higher End ward and the Winstanley ward except its detached parts). The 'Gazetteer' also gives a discription of Winstanley and Billinge. Take a look ..... www.gmcro.co.uk/guides/gazette/gazzt2w.htm
80.192.242.187 23:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC) JemmyH.
PS. What was Billinge Higher End ward, is now in Orrell ward. See ONS for ward maps.
- I agree these are two different area's, should be two separate articles. Man2
- Please refer to this http://www.wiganmbc.gov.uk/pub/partnership/township/orrell/index.htm. The page contains the statement "until 2004 Billinge was a familiar place for local parents as home to the borough’s maternity hospital". Please note the use of the word 'Borough'. This shows Billinge Hospital was the Wigan areas maternity facility not simply 'for the surrounding areas'. Thanks. Man2
Billinge hospital was for all NHS registered patients in the surrounding areas, including Wigan, but not exclusively Wigan. Wigan Borough was, then, only small and it was the only maternity hospital nearby so, of course, it was used by Wigan. The hospital also served NHS registered patients from St.Helens, Rainford, Billinge, Blackbrook, Haydock, Earlestown, Ashton, Golborne, AND Wigan. What makes you think Wigan is so 'important'?
- What part of the hospital section of the article is not correct?. It states that is was the maternity facility for the Borough of Wigan "and other surrounding areas" (obviously people in Astley/Leigh etc would prob not have used Billinge). It goes on to say that now the hospital has closed the 'Wigan area' (i.e. Swinley, Newtown, Pem, Orrell, Ince, Billinge Higher End etc etc) maternity cases now use the infirmary. The places outside the borough that used Billinge until it closed now do not use the Infirmary, but hospital's closer to them. Seeing as the site where Billinge Hospital was is in the Borough of Wigan mention should be made that it was the maternity facility for the Borough (as mentioned in the above link).
- Billinge Hospital was used for maternity care by patients from many GP's Practices in it's surrounding area. Wigan, St.Helens, Rainford, Upholland, Haydock, Earlestown, Golborne and even Billinge itself. This article is for 'Billinge' and 'Winstanley', not Wigan, or St.Helens, or anywhere else. Where Wigans maternity care comes from now is not relative. Neither is where St.Helens maternity care comes from now, or anywhere elses maternity care for that matter. There is no reason to single out Wigan for inclusion in this article at all.
When I was born in Billinge Hospital back in 1966 it was located within the boundaries of 'Billinge-and-Winstanley Urban District Council', Lancashire. My parents were residents in Ashton-in-Makerfield Urban District, Lancashire. I wasn't born in Wigan and my parents didn't live in Wigan. Those born in the hospital after the local government re-organisation in 1974 might argue that they were Wiganers, just as those resident in Ashton may employ similar arguments. I'm not convinced. The Metropolitan Borough of Wigan is a big place. Not everyone born or resident there are Wiganers. (Similarly, not all Merseysiders are 'scousers'. Even those sounding scouse like Birkenheaders will remind you: "Don't be mistaken, don't be misled, We're not scousers, We come from Birkenhead!"). Yozzer66 20:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well Sed! 80.192.242.187 20:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC) JemmyH.
- Oh, and don't be misled on Ashton in Makerfield being 'in' Wigan, either. Because it's not. It is in the Same 'Metropolitan Borough' as Wigan is, but that's as far as it goes.
The National Register of Archives claims to have records for 'Billinge and Winstanley Urban District Council' dating from 1838 to 1974. However, the website 'A Vision of Britain Through Time' says that Billinge and Winstanley UD was created in 1924. Obviously, both these sources can't be correct. Does anybody know which date, if any, is the correct one? Yozzer66 21:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK. But, irrespective of what the local council call themselves, or which local councils 'team up' and create a new name for themselves, the actual places, one called Winstanley and the other one Billinge, have remained the same. This is a problem with Wikipedia, people write articles about 'local council areas and wards', instead of articles about 'places', using correct 'place names'. And, more often than not, the writer has never set foot in the place he/she is writing about.
- Just a point about the college, its not, as in the article in the Orrell area.
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- Winstanley College is contiguous to Orrell and is also within Orrell council ward.
- OK. If everyone will hang on today, I will effect a split of the articles to reflect the comments and links above. If anyone objects I won't proceed. Regan123 13:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Split
Right after many hours of work, I have now completed the split into:
and tried to incorporate all the material above. It has been very difficult to follow the conversation becuase of the formatting and lack of signatures. To summarise:
- Always sign your comments. Use ~~~~ - there is a button below.
- Always provide an edit summary.
- Always assume good faith and be civil.
- Always cite your sources. Ideally these must be reputable and on the web so that people can click on them and read. I know it to be true isn't good enough according to Wikipedia
- Can I also suggest that people look at the manual of style which explains how things should be done.
- When replying always indent your comments using :, :: etc. Again it makes it much easier to follow. Sign each indent if you are doing inserted replies.
This article needs more referencing added. I will see what I can do, but I have other articles I want to work on. Cheers and I hope this is more accurate. Regan123 19:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
