Talk:Black concert T-shirt

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This article was nominated for deletion on December 6, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus, provide reliable sources.

Contents 1 Verification 2 Does this merit an article? 2.1 T-shirts signifying membership in a clique 3 Google search turned up this material 4 Rename 5 Merge with another article?

[edit] Verification

Is anyone going to verify any of this?

Oops, I hadn't noticed that edit (dated October 17th). Thanks for bringing it to the talk page. In the future, if you see something as obviously biased as "it is generally considered lame", you can go ahead and remove it yourself. Cheers, IronChris | (talk)

Found a news article that references black concert t-shirts in relation to tour dates listings. --Mattarata 22:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Noone can verify that it is cool to wear a band's tshirt to their own concert.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doug Bell (talk • contribs).

It might be more possible to verify that is it not cool. Verification for matters like this would be using quotes from credible writers. — edgarde 18:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does this merit an article?

T-shirt sales are a big part of the concert biz, but as titled, I don't think the article describes something worth treatment separate from Event T-shirt concessions (or something similar), or List of teenage dirtbag fashion statements. Actually, this entire article could be pasted into T-shirt.

Yes black was a popular color for "rock" tees, but I don't think the color was linked to live music as a cultural phenomenon or anything — my black band tee (Jimi Hendrix, circa '78) was purchased in a record store, and had no appearance dates. White shirts were sold even then at some concerts, and today concert tees come in a range of colors for some artists.

I'd {{merge}} tag this, but would like to hear others' opinions about why this article exists, at least as titled. — edgarde 16:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As creator of the original Black Concert T-shirt article, my opinion is that the black concert t-shirt is more of a trend/fad or phenomenon than any other type of concert merchandise. It is also more than just a teenage fashion statement. It has become a standard of dress, a uniform of sorts, for concert goers worldwide. When one plans to attend a concert, they think..."hmmm what should I wear, how about this black concert t and some jeans, yeah that is probably good." Granted they are not only worn to concerts, but at concerts they are choice attire. I am sure there are more references in news articles, mentions in books, mentions in song lyrics or stories about the black concert t-shirt, I just havn't been able to find them. The article could easily be beefed up some if more material can be pulled from other sources.

As for mentioning in the T-shirt article, my opinion is that the black concert t-shirt really only deserves brief mention there rather than a full section, especially if Black Concert T-shirt can be significantly beefed up. --Mattarata 03:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how it deserves more than a brief mention anywhere, c.f. WP:N.

Let's say I felt Fuzzy dice and bongos were a distinct fashion statement. Would that merit an article? — edgarde 03:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It would if it was a documented and established fad or trend. WP:N is established in a very small way by the one news reference and the image. I am asking that others help to provide more references rather than delete or merge to a place where it doesn't really belong. I guess I am off to find some more sources.--Mattarata 03:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that you, Edgarde, seem to think that this is not notable, which is obvious from some of your statements ("teenage dirtbag fashion statements", etc.). However, it is a widespread trend, and a lot of non-teens wear concert T-shirts. I myself wear nothing else, and I'm 21. This is a notable clothing article, like New Rock boots, leather jackets (see also rocker jacket), Kutten, and spike bands.

I agree however that the title is a bit strange, and it would probably be a good thing to move it to something like "Concert T-shirt", as there are concert T-shirts that aren't black.

As Mattarata points out, merging this into T-shirt, though a tempting idea, would condemn this material to remain as a small section and never be expanded. There is surely stuff to add, like a history of these clothing articles, their economic significance for bands and organisers of tours, etc. There are plenty of articles about fashion, and there is nothing wrong with that, provided that it is a sufficiantly widespread trend (which is the case) and that there are reliable sources.

If this article was to remain in its present state, then it should be merged. But as I say, it could be expanded, and would then be worthy of its own space. So for the moment I oppose a merge, but if nothing has changed in a couple of months, then it should be merged (it is a fairly young article after all, let's give it some time). IronChris | (talk) 17:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay I've ticked someone off again. I should work on giving more neutral examples.

Would a rename to Concert T-shirt be acceptable? Might Band T-shirt (or something similar) be even better by virtue of being more inclusive? Plenty of band T-shirts (even black ones) aren't purchased at concert venues. I feel like my Monster Magnet "School Free Drug Zone" T is in the spirit of the article you want. — edgarde 19:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that initiating the AfD process wasn't my idea. For what it's worth, if this article is deleted, but as a section of T-shirt it grows in a healthy fashion, you'll have a case for forking it off into a new article like this one. There's no reason good, verifiable information would be confined to a small, insufficient space. — edgarde 20:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I like the idea of a band T-shirt article. I mean, it's surely as notable as some of the clothing items mentionned above, right? Anyway, thanks for your input, edgarde. IronChris | (talk) 18:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Since no consensus was reached on the merge with T-shirt I am removing the merge tag. --Mattarata 02:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T-shirts signifying membership in a clique

"You're a punk rock kid; you're a Madonna wannabe; you're a headbanger."

Without really mentioning the rock concert T, does this kinda encompass the "Black concert T-shirt" concept?

When I wear my Nico denim jacket, my Abba baseball cap, or my Lords Of Acid buttplug, aren't I just showing other music enthusiasts how cool I am? This is all one behavior, right? — edgarde 02:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that those wearing a Black concert T-shirt are trying to fit into a clique or otherwise following a fashion trend or style. It is a documented behavior as other fads or trends are. As such, the shirt, when used in the capacity of summing up a specific style or view, can be its own article. --Mattarata 18:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google search turned up this material

-I believe all of these links to be better than a an obscure blog reference, and I think they can help add material to the article.

• A site called Grumble Magazine has an article titled "My Heavy Metal Band Can Kick Your Heavy Metal Band's Ass" [1] wherein it mentions "Dozens of people vanished during the show, reappearing in their regulation black concert t-shirts." The term "regulation black" here gives evidence that a Black concert T-shirt is the fashion that stands out amount all concert t-shirts.
• A site [2] that compiles a general review of all of the Lollapalloza's maintained by Sillicon Valley's Metroactive newspaper says "If you ever wanted to see skinheads dressed in beat-up black concert T-shirts yelling "Fuck yeah, Monks!" Lollapalooza No. 6 was the place for you."
• A Centerstage Chicago article [3] by Kat Daly mentions "Everyone has on black concert T-shirts, and they're listening to heavy metal…"
• A Cincinnati City Beat article [4] by John M. James "I still miss those clandestine black-market entrepreneurs hanging out in the concert parking lots of 1970's, slinging newsboy shoulder bags filled with gaudy, black concert t-shirts at $5 a piece..."
• Central Iowa's Independent Weekly, Cityview Online, references[5] "you might want to check the back of the closet for those frayed black concert T-shirts sporting images of big-hair metal bands from the '80s." in their summer concert preview for 2006, by Michael Swanger.
• Spin says "If she sports a mullet and prefers ratty black concert t-shirts, she's likely..." in an article[6] about a band called Tsar on June 30, 2005.
• The Northern Iowan talks about[7] a defendant's black concert t-shirts being used as evidence in a trial.

--Mattarata 00:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

I admit I'm impressed by Mattarata's references. I think the way to go would be a rename to Band T-shirt, with a section on Black concert T-shirts. If someone can't fashion a reasonably encyclopedic entry on that sub-topic, just a list of terse quotes from Mattarata's references with in-line citations would certainly stand up. Then put a {{main}} "Main article" link on T-shirt.

Can we get some agreement on this? I don't want to act alone, or try and steamroll this through. I just think this is a good way to keep this information up to Wikipedia standards. — edgarde 04:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

i'm all for keeping this page, but a rename would be nice. while most people are pushing for a more generalized name in terms of colour, i'm voting for dropping the 'concert' bit. black t-shirts have become a generic term for concert goers in some places... in india for one. unfortunately, i wouldn't have any references for this. i speak purely from experience. it's on the lines of calling people longhairs. in a sentence, 'oi, black t-shirts, shift your moshing away from the stage. you're stepping on my pedals.' --Yufeeko 17:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be onto something, but "purely from experience" is a tough sell around here. — edgarde 17:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

i know.. which is why i said 'i wouldn't have any references'... but i'm still against deletion... but i'm with you on improving the standard of the article... --Yufeeko 01:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with another article?

Instead of generalizing the article, perhaps it could be added as a section of Heavy Metal Fashion. The details of the article would be able to be kept whole. Ultimate77 01:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)