Talk:Blackrock College

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The article makes no reference the school's extensive missionary and charity work or it's academic standing.

A mention of Ross O Caroll Kelly perhaps? -- Liam195.7.54.2 12:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added him in. Demiurge 13:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I mean as a well known satire on the school and related culture rather than as an alumnus!

Maybe as a satire reference, but definitely not as an alumnus - he went to "Castlerock". --Kwekubo 21:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Should the article also point out that the majority of students pay fees? Ekilfeather 16:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it reads a bit like a brochure rather than an encyclopedia entry at the moment. There's a lot more stuff that could go in eg about the associations and place it has in the media and popular thought. Anyone know enough about this to tackle it? 195.7.54.2 14:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this article has improved greatly. It should concentrate on what makes the school notable and avoid aspects that are common to most other Irish schools.Curtains99 18:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Media Coverage of Killing of Brian Murphy paragraph not NPOV 2 Valid Alumni? 3 Tomás de Bhaldraithe 4 Harbison's 'erroneous report' 5 Creatine etc

[edit] Media Coverage of Killing of Brian Murphy paragraph not NPOV

"What is perhaps most interesting about the incident is the media-fuelled outpouring of disdain for the school, given the connections of those involved. Several publications, some even with a veneer of reputability, were reprimanded for how they dealt with the issue. This is now seen as part of a wider-felt disregard for the school and similar institutions."

This is not NPOV (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). Would you disagree that the killing itself and the conviction of the guilty were the most interesting things about the incident rather than perceived media bias against the school? Is there a source indicating which newspapers were 'reprimanded'? I don't remember this. Did a judge make such a reprimand? Is there a survey showing a wide-felt disregard for the school? Could someone delete or edit this paragraph to make it neutral and based on verifiable facts?Curtains99 20:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

In response:

Given that the article is about the school itself, the case is only of interest in perspective and relevance to the scool. If there is a need for an article or an objective writeup of the case on Wikipedia, it should have its own article. As described in the links below, the negative media attention was wildly disproportionate to the accused's relationship with the school.

As described in the links below, various publications were reprimanded by the case's Judge.

There is no direct statistic showing a widespread disregard for the school (as no such survey is ever likely to be undertaken by an impartial party) but the context of and situations described in the linked articles clearly indicate the prescence of pre-existing negative attitudes and dislike for the school, especially given that it is fee-paying and seen as the preserve of the upper-middle class.

The articles generally contain considerably more relevant material than expressed in the quotes. The quotes are there merely to demonstrate evidence of their content.

"Media Frenzy of Manslaughter Trial" http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/02/29/story190712089.asp

From the article: "`For privilege read Shame' ran the headline in yesterday's Irish Independent. Referring to the "Silver Spoon Generation", the newspaper described how "their lovely homes, their fee-paying schools, their clothes, their accents, their conversation, the cars that have taken them to and from the trial, have set them apart in the environs of the courthouse". "

"Black Days at Blackrock" http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/03/07/story61515294.asp

From the article: "From the very outset of the Club Anabel's trial, the defendants have been consistently defined by their association with their old school. Reading the more sensationalist accounts of the case,you would have got the impression that Blackrock College itself was in the dock, along with the four young men accused of the death of an 18-year-old boy.

By extension, the case became an excuse for some to condemn an entire section of society - the affluent, south Dublin professional class that inspires such fascination and envy from those who do not belong to it."

"Newspapers Fined for reporting Manslaughter Trial" http://www.simonmcaleese.com/asp/article.asp?ObjectID=310&Mode=0&RecordID=214

From the article: "The media coverage of the trial was criticised by many on the basis that it concentrated on the privileged background of those charged with the killing. Headlines such as "Kicked to Death"; “For Privilege read Shame; "The Posh Killer; Shame of Blackrock Thug Who Kicked Student to Death" and "Silver Spoon Generation" were above newspaper articles which described the defendants’"

"Judge Bans Comments on Accused in Murphy Case" (Google Cache, website requires registration) http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:cBiqYapWmyMJ:www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3%3Fca%3D9%26si%3D1114343%26issue_id%3D10353+brian+murphy+blackrock+media&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=11

From the article: " The judge had previously expressed concerns over some of the publicity the case had received and urged the jury to pay no attention to newspaper reports on the trial. He had asked them not to read, in particular, the numerous "colour articles" some publications had carried since the trial began."

"Murphy Death Shows 'Innate Savagery of Man'" (Google Cache, website requires registration) http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:ChZ1T0FGMFsJ:www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3%3Fca%3D9%26si%3D1131571%26issue_id%3D10480+brian+murphy+blackrock+media+innate+savagery&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

From the article: " John Edwards pleaded with the jury to ignore what he called a "palpable atmosphere" that he claimed has existed in the press and broadcast media from the beginning of the case."

I will refrain from editing/expanding and reposting of the paragraph in question, for an appropriate period of time, until these details have been discussed.

• I'm still a bit dubious about phrases like "what is most interesting", "some even with a veneer of respectability" and "this is now seen". How about just keeping to the facts and avoiding our interpretation of them entirely. Here's my suggestion for a compromise paragraph:

The school was the subject of much media comment during the trial. According to Andrew Lynch writing in the Sunday Business Post: "Reading the more sensationalist accounts of the case,you would have got the impression that Blackrock College itself was in the dock".

All factual/verifiable, yet I think it gets the same point across.Demiurge 09:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• Admittedly, the initial version of the paragraph was probably not the most appropriate possible description. I think your proposed paragraph is fine, but there should be an additional line or two alluding to the extent of media commentary and it's often unethical nature, sometimes to the point of criminality.

Also, given the cultural reference to Ross O'Carroll-Kelly in the article I think it is also important to mention public perception of the school, and I suspect much of public opinion of the school is now inexorably connected with the Brian Murphy case.

I agree. Blackrock College is now famous for 3 things: being by far the best school at Rugby in Leinster (Ireland?), being the alma mater of cultural anti-hero Ross, educating the teenagers who kicked Brian Murphy to death.Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the title, given that the charge brought before the court was manslaughter, perhaps "Death of Brian Murphy" would be more accurate.

Manslaughter means unlawful killing. It's when you kill someone with out intending to do so.Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Dermot Laide should not be included in notable alumni, apart from anything else, he is unlikely to have a bio. written up, and Brian Murphy is not listed as an alumnus of Gonzaga.

Agreed, Laide is only notable for making the news and going to prison and he has no achievements other than killing someone. I don't see him getting a bio. Curtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally, the External Links to Brian Murphy related journalism, if they are to remain, should include some of the links detailing the media's reprimand and their attitude in general. 10:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if you want to include that the media were reprimanded then add an external link for proofCurtains99 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There is far too much weight given to the coverage of this incident. The entry cannot simply write about media coverage of an incident hen much of what was said was unverififed and unfairly attacking the school. The entry doesn't state that only one of the accused was convicted of a crime. An earlier talker said it's the school that educated people who kicked Brian Murphy to death, only one Blackrock past pupil was shown to have struck Brian Murphy and that was with a punch. Witnesses described up to eight people in the fight at one time, the majority of whon were not from Blackrock college.

A seperate article should be written about the incident.

[edit] Valid Alumni?

Did Barry John go to Blackrock College? Is Rowan Manahan notable? His claim to fame is that he wrote a book and his entry in wikipedia looks like an ad for that book (currently bubbling under at no 64,000 in the Amazon.co.uk bestseller list). Curtains99 01:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• User:Johnnnn removed Eamon de Valera, Pádraic Ó Conaire, Liam Ó Flaithearta, John O'Shea and Fergus Slattery from the alumni section. The first three are among the College's most famous past pupils [1] [2], and it seems that a notable John O'Shea did attend Blackrock, although I cannot identify from online sources which one. I'm unsure about Slattery. --Kwekubo 20:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
• I think it should be noted that John O'Shea the footballer and also the more famous of the two did not attend Blackrock College

[edit] Tomás de Bhaldraithe

Apparently de Bhaldraithe attempted to start a hurling team here in the 1930s and the college authorities resisted him because they feared it would lower the tone. This was in De Bhaldraithe's obituary in The Irish Times a few years ago so if anybody has access to the archives they should find more. El Gringo 14:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• That doesn't sound very likely, even if it was in an obituary. Hurling was so popular in the early years of the college that at one point it was in danger of passing out rugby as the college's main sport. --Kwekubo 00:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harbison's 'erroneous report'

I have removed this sentence:

The apparent error by Dr. Harbison has cast doubt over several other cases based on his autopsy evidence given at a similar time to the erroneous Brian Murphy report.

No source for this doubt cast over other cases. No source that Harbison's report was erroneous. No source to show he was medically unfit at time of report preparation. No source that the two reports are even contradictory: the newer pathologist merely mentioned a complicating factor that she felt exacerbated the assault injuries, leading to death. Curtains99 10:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creatine etc

A number of editors have added claims that rugby players from this school have failed doping tests and that use of creatine is widespread. Any information like this has to be backed up with a source such as a newspaper article. Here's an article from the Irish Times in which the headmaster states that the school actively discourages creatine use. And here's an article from the Sunday Business Post where the author states that 'It is also widely suspected that many of today's school rugby players take the legal performance-enhancing drug creatine.' I don't think either of these articles are worth adding. One is a journalistic denial (headmaster denies that dragons live under the school), the other uses weasel words to make an allegation not specifically directed at this school. Curtains99 11:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

'The broad sweep of Dublin Bay'...This is taken directly from the school wensite. It makes the entry seem more like an advertisement.