Talk:Bowling for Columbine

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Notice: Schrodinger82 is banned from editing this article.

The user specified has been banned by the Arbitration committee from editing this article for a period of one year. The user is not prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page. At the end of the ban, any user may remove this notice. Posted by Srikeit 05:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC) for the Arbitration committee. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Bowling for Columbine.

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• /Archive 1 - someone should go through this and include relevant information in the article
• /Archive 2 - Until 6 October 2006
• /Archive 3 - Until 7 Decemeber 2006

Contents 1 Unbalanced 2 Pro-Gun Group Opinions Part Duex 3 Charlton Heston 4 Dick Clark 5 Bowling alone 6 Special Criticisms: It's A Wonderful World

[edit] Unbalanced

That tag has been on this article a long time, and a lot of editing has happened to it. The article now has about even amounts of summary and criticism. Can I remove the tag? DJ Clayworth 18:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Last chance to object before I remove the unbalanced tag. DJ Clayworth 15:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Until the Criticism section is sorted out it's unbalanced. PPGMD 20:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody has explained what's the matter with the criticism section, I'm removing the tag. DJ Clayworth 21:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We have explained it several times, but since the Schrodinger issue has been sorted out I am going to start working on content for the section once I get back from this business trip. PPGMD 23:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You didn't explain it any times in the thirty days since I asked about it. Please explain it now. Give a reference back to the edit where you explain it if you don't want to repeat yourself. You've been back from your trip for several days now. DJ Clayworth 20:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I just got back last night. Anyways I have explained way too many times, it's among all that Schrodinger crap. I am currently working toward balancing the article out. PPGMD 21:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Can the tag be removed now? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.39 (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

Yes; it's now almost March 2007. I'm taking it out, as there's apparently no good reason to retain it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 22:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Gun Group Opinions Part Duex

Now that the Schrodinger issue has been sorted out we can start dealing with the Pro-gun groups that were removed. Kopel and Harding both represent opinions on this subject that are at the very least held by a significant minority. Both are notable, and can be verified. Now the question is what sources would be accepted that they hold this opinion?

By linking to their websites, or online available magazine articles we can have data that anyone can read, analyze, and most importantly verify. We can also cite their published martial, this more closely follows WP:RS but makes it harder for the average reader to read further about the subject.

Now the other question is how much to include I do agree that doing a point my point counter-argument gives it Undue weight, but two paragraphs should be more then enough to include some background to put their opinion in perspective, a choice quote from each, and short summation of their views.PPGMD 21:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)coo

I don't think it necessarily is undue weight to give point-by-point arguments. They've managed to criticize the movie in ways that are basically the final word on the subject--because it's trivial to verify that they're correct and the movie is wrong. As I've pointed out in the Schrodinger arbitration, if the criticism out there is mostly arguments against the movie, then having a criticism section that is mostly arguments against the movie doesn't violate undue weight.

(And again, I know that there is a lot of praise of the movie, but it's mostly generalities like "this is a powerful movie". Nobody says "I praise Moore for accurately reporting the history of the NRA and the KKK".) Ken Arromdee 18:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charlton Heston

I'm not questioning the material featuring Charlton Heston in the documentary, but I've heard that some parts of it were fabricated. I'm sorry I can't be more detailed than that, but I can't recall every accusation some of his fans made. Does anyone know anything about this? --DearPrudence 22:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Hardy article. Distortions include:

• Charlton Heston's quote about "cold dead hands" is edited in to make it look like it was said in reaction to Columbine, when in fact it was given a year later at a completely different event in response to something completely different.
• Heston's speech was edited to put together quotes from two separate speeches and separate parts of the original speech to make the quotes out of context; for instance, the full context of the "we're already here" quote was "NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked the lives to rescue the students at Columbine. Don't come here? We're already here."
• Heston actually said that he was cancelling the meeting. Moore edited it out and selectively quoted to make it seem like the NRA was intentionally holding rallies after Columbine.
• Moore edited in a web page quoting "48 hours after Kayla Rolland was pronounced dead" to make it look like Heston held a rally 48 hours later, when the 48 hours quote was about something completely different and the actual rally was 8 months later.
• Moore deceptively describes the Heston interview as "Heston claims in the final interview of the film that he didn't know this had just happened when he appeared" (which is false unless "just happened" means 8 months later)
• Moore uses a quote by Heston that "We had enough problems with civil rights in the beginning" out of context to imply Heston is a racist; in fact, Heston was a prominent civil rights activist and the quote really means that he had problems trying to achieve civil rights, not that he considered civil rights a bad thing.

Moore doesn't really need to resort to creative editing to make other Heston statements 'look' racist. Heston gave these statements (as quoted in the criticism section by me) on camera. Hasn't anybody bothered to actually watch this film before writing about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cancun771 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

All of this *was* in the Wikipedia article, but it's been gutted. Ken Arromdee 15:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added ^{[citation needed]} tags to the section that criticizes Moore's depiction of Heston in this film, as it makes assertions that he "creatively edited" (as User:Ken Arromdee has described above), but without citing sources. One thing to be careful of: there's no shortage of sources on the Internet that criticize Michael Moore, but please cite RELIABLE ones. It would be best if some kind of neutral source was found (i.e. somebody who doesn't have an agenda in criticizing Moore). I think Spinsanity may have done a piece on Moore and that is a site that criticizes "spin" from Democrats and Republicans, so that may be one such reliable source. --Hnsampat 17:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dick Clark

Why is there no mention about Dick Clark, and Dick Clark's American Bandstand Grill’s controversial labor policies? This issue is one of the central pivots of Moore’s film yet it is completely omitted from the article. (Mchelada 18:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Bowling alone

Anon just removed the reference, and I'm chiming in with my two cents - in order for that information to be included in the article, it's my thinking that Moore himself would have to say it was inspiratio for the title. Other people saying that the title of Bowling for Columbine reminds them of the book Bowling Alone should go on that person's page, not on the movie page. WLU 19:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah; the point I was making is that this is merely speculation on the part of the reviewer cited in the reference, with nothing more than their say-so (which is closer to "it might be" than "it is certain that ..."), making it pretty much a non-starter so far as being included here or anywhere else on Wikipedia goes. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Special Criticisms: It's A Wonderful World

The fact that the CIA was instrumental in funding the Taliban and groups that later gave support to Bin Laden post 9/11 is a matter of (congressional)record: see the references in the back of Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 by Steve Coll for details. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.190.227 (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC).