Talk:Britches (monkey)

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Contents 1 Stolen or Removed 2 3RR 3 3 or 5 weeks? 4 He or it 5 protection 6 Stolen or Removed 7 Unsourced Info 8 consider this the discussion 9 Sources 10 POV 11 POV fixed by merge or move?

[edit] Stolen or Removed

This is currently being discussed over at Talk:Animal Liberation Front and should not be changed until a consensus is reached. There is an argument either way and until a decision is made, it will likely become a revert war over it. Please discuss it and allow the community to decide before changing it again. It is not one user's place to make decisions on very controversial articles such as this one and the Animal Liberation Front one.-Localzuk ^(talk) 00:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The view over at the Animal Liberation Front is that it should stay as 'removed' and not 'stolen'. The paragraph on the ALF page is a direct copy of this article so should be the same here as it is there.-Localzuk ^(talk) 19:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't "liberated" be a more appropriate term? Rockpocket 20:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really. It is the same as stolen, as in it is POV. Removed is nice and central so is the best of the 3 IMO-Localzuk ^(talk) 21:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Really?? The 'removers' are considered (by themselves and others) as part of the animal liberation movment, yet the term 'liberated' is not appropriate? Rockpocket 23:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No because it is a weighted word - pro-ar (stolen being anti-ar). I think if it were changed, a whole fuss would kick up about it.-Localzuk ^(talk) 23:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Rockpocket, you'd be one of the first to kick up a fuss if we said Britches had been liberated. ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Not so, Slim, i have no problem with 'liberated'. My understanding of the word is "to set free from confinement", and i don't think anyone could argue that was the aim, and result, of the ALF raid. However, i suppose different people have different interepretations, and might find insinuation in it. Not me, though. Rockpocket 05:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, my apologies. Good to know for the future. ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't found any evidence that Britches was set free from confinement. From the available evidence it seems that possesion of the animal was transferred from the University of California to the Animal Liberation Front.Winick88 11:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it would be highly unlikely that Britches would be able to return to the wild. The more likely course of action would be that he would have ended up in a sanctuary where he can be treated for any illnesses that he may get and could live out as normal a life as he can. Due to the way he was experimented on I would say that he would not be able to survive in the wild. -Localzuk ^(talk) 12:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

My point is that the Animal Liberation Front must maintain possession of Britches. I've been looking all over the web for his whereabouts (besides being held by ALF activists) but have found nothing. Has anyone else had better luck in this regard?Winick88 01:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of maintaining full transparency, I'd like to point out that I added a 1 sentence conclusion to the Britches entry.Winick88 05:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added information about where he was taken after the raid. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Britches was sent to a monkey sanctuary. There is a full chapter on this in "Free the Animals" by Ingrid Newkirk.

The term Liberated, which works best I think aplies here not in the physical sense as in he was liberated from a cage into the wild, but liberated in the political sense from suffering.

Stolen would be fine to use in the sense he is propety, because under US law at the time animals weree propety, HOWEVER the great apes project now gives certian semians rights, so this may no longer be the case. Also to ignore the fact the ALF considered they were Liberating him would be very unneutural (talk)

[edit] 3RR

I've blocked 134.161.137.162 for 24h and reverted back to what appears to be the more popular version. Given that it does appear to be the consensus, I'm ignoring SWD316's 4 reverts just this time. But don't do it again. William M. Connolley 20:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC).

I noticed that my reverts are more than 3 in 24 hours as well. (I just got the timing wrong, thinking it was earlier last night when this all started). I will try to be more careful in future.-Localzuk ^(talk) 20:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

OK I'll forgive you :-). You get extra points for turning yourself in... William M. Connolley 00:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] 3 or 5 weeks?

I notice this article says the monkey was removed at 3 weeks old, yet over at the ALF there is a caption claiming the same animals was photographed at 5 weeks with his eyes sutured shut. Unless the ALF left the monkey sutured up for a few weeks (unlikely, but you never can tell) i would suggest there is a conflict there. Anyone know the real age the animal was removed/stolen/liberated? Rockpocket 20:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

From memory, the three/five week confusion is because the monkey was identified at three weeks as an animal they wanted to remove/liberate/steal, and the raid took place two weeks later, which caused confusion when the sources reported the ALF statement. I'll re-check the more authoritative sources later. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] He or it

Should primates etc. always referred as he/she? Lapinmies 21:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, not sure I understand your query. Britches is male, I believe, so he's referred to as he. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems that animals are called he/she in English. I remember my old english teacher saying that animals are not humans so one must use "it" instead of he/she. I guess she was confused. Lapinmies 23:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, she was confused. It is acceptable to refer to an animal whose gender you do not know as "it", but if you're talking about a pet then people generally prefer that you ask and use the correct gender pronoun: obviously if there's no way to tell, then you're stuck with "it". The main difference is that it is almost never acceptable to refer to a human being as "it": this is when you start stumbling into arguments like "singular they". HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 10:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Some researchers use "it" because they believe using gendered pronouns overly anthropomorphizes the subjects, and I believe some journals used to enforced this rule through their editorial standards. However, now most researchers are quite concerned with the well-being of their subjects and some signal this by referring to them with gendered pronouns, and most journals seem to accept this. This does not mean that researchers who still use "it" necessarily violate animal welfare codes, but it does sometimes signal a particular POV. --Jaibe 16:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] protection

I've protected this article so you'll have to sort your differences out here. Gamaliel 18:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I think the consensus of the community has already been decided partly on this page and partly on the Talk:Animal Liberation Front page. This user has appeared before (as the IP address he uses is from a dynamic range) and done the same changes and been blocked for it, should he not have been blocked? -Localzuk ^(talk) 18:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

As we now have calm, maybe we should have another discussion about the issue: -Localzuk ^(talk) 19:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stolen or Removed

An anonymous editor has stated that the dictionary definition of 'stolen' is correct and using 'removed' is wrong. We have discussed this over at Talk:Animal Liberation Front and the consensus appeared to be in favour of 'removed' as it is a less weighted word. What do people still think? -Localzuk ^(talk) 19:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm also posting about this on the Animal Liberation Front page. -Localzuk ^(talk) 19:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

My view on the matter is that 'stolen' even though correct to a degree, is a weighted word. Removed provides a neutral standing point that does not need a reference. To say stolen would require references to prove this - something such as a court outcome in this case as the scientific community (even the university it was removed from) denounced the tests that were done (see the prior discussion on the Animal Liberation Front page for a reference to this). So unless a reference to the outcome of such a case is provided I do not think 'stolen' should be used. -Localzuk ^(talk) 19:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, I do not support 'abducted' as it is also weighted and has the implications mentioned above. -Localzuk ^(talk) 19:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I think that "stolen" correctly describes what happened, it presumes that the monkey is property, which I would guess runs counter to the ALF point of view. "removed" is a fine NPOV word but says nothing about the illegality of the their actions. The ALF was breaking the law by taking the monkey and that was most likely their intent. I would vote for either "abducted" or "illegally removed". –Shoaler (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

But this needs a reference to state it was illegal does it not? -Localzuk ^(talk) 20:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. But where is taking an animal in captivity without permission not illegal? If someone removes $1000 from a bank (without permission), we don't need a reference to show that it's illegal. –Shoaler (talk) 20:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

When the animal is being mistreated, or is being used in illegal activities. (In this country it would be referred to as preventing a greater crime and would be dismissed as having been a crime by the judge...) In this case there is a lot of evidence leading to the tests being illegal (see the old discussion for this as there were some references to a court case being long and complicated or something similar) also the general condemnation by the scientific community + the university itself seems to indicate something was wrong. To answer the relation to money, if the money was removed in order to stop it being used to commit a greater offence then it would not be a crime in itself (and indeed, money is removed from suspected terrorist organisations/individuals all the time for this very reason).-Localzuk ^(talk) 21:06, 6 February 2006(UTC)

This has already been discussed, Shoaler, and the consensus was that "removed" is neutral between "stolen" and "liberated." If you can find a court ruling that this animal was "stolen" by all means provide it here as a source and we can reconsider. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

We may have a consensus on "removed" but we still have an edit war. I was trying to find another word between "stolen" and "liberated" that would be acceptable to both parties. –Shoaler (talk) 23:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

There's an edit war only because an anon IP keeps vandalizing the article. Abducted carries the same problems as stolen, in that both are legal terms. "Removed" isn't. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Consensus was reached and even those that originally opposed 'removed' changed their minds and went with it. Only the anon has complained. -Localzuk ^(talk) 00:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't hear "abducted" as strongly moralistic as "stolen" but I don't want to upset the consensus. Removed sounds fine to me. –Shoaler (talk) 13:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced Info

The following statement is not sourced and will be modified:

The ALF made a videotape of Britches' condition when they found him, and as a result of the ensuing publicity, and condemnation of the experiments by scientists and the American Council for the Blind, eight of the 17 studies interrupted by the raid were not restarted, and the university stopped allowing baby monkey's eyes to be sewn shut, according to reports filed by the university with the government. (My emphasis added)

Now sourced. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It also conflicts with the sourced info on the ALF page:

As a result of the ensuing publicity, 17 of the 18 research projects active at the laboratory at the time of the raid were shut down (Best 2004, p. 22).(My emphasis added)

Fixed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course, we don't cite other Wikipedia entries in our articles, but the discordance together with the unknown source of the fact is enough to remove it, at least temporarily. I am merging the paragraph with the proximate one. The new paragraph reads thus:

Britches was stolen from the laboratory, along with 700 other animals, when he was five weeks old during a raid by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The ALF made a videotape of Britches' condition allegedly as they found him, though researchers at the university criticized the ALF, claiming activists had applied black mascara or paint to the monkey's eyelids to make the sutures look larger than they were, and that damage reported by an ALF veterinarian to the eyelids had, in fact, been caused by the veterinarian herself. The researchers also said that a box the ALF video showed was attached to the monkey's head had been removed and reattached by the ALF. Winick88 06:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Restored sourced original. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The Ingrid source conflicts with the Best source, as per above. Winick88 07:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As I wrote above, this is fixed and no longer conflicts. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

All you did was put the two citations together, but those two books clearly say two different things. Best says 17 of 18 and Newkirk says 8 of 17. Could you give me page numbers so that I can double check (maybe there's a section I'm not seeing)? Also, this may be a silly question, but does it bother you that this entire article is based on only two books, one by the president of PETA and the other by an ALF press officer? I still think "according to Newkirk" should be referenced at the top of the page. I mean, the whole thing is sourced by Newkirk except for one statement of fact attributed to Best, which supposedly corroborates the Newkirk source but, again, they conflict. And why did you remove the link to the ALF? I mean, I know there's still a link to "Animal Liberation Front," but deleting the ALF link is kind of weird, yeah? Winick88 08:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

ALF redirects to Animal Liberation Front, so we don't wikify both. Page numbers: Best p. 22 and Newkirk p. 294. It isn't surprising that we have two books written by the movement as references, because the pro-testing community is unlikely to highlight a case like this, though if you can find any other suitable sources, by all means add them. And the first paragraph is already sourced to Newkirk as a Harvard reference: we don't introduce articles with "according to," but with the title of the page, wherever possible. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

But those two sources say two different things-- Best says 17 of 18 and Newkirk says 8 of 17. I can't stress this enough. Do you actually have the book? Not only that, but this very same fact is mirrored on the ALF page in the brief Britches section. I agree with you that the pro-testing community wouldn't highlight the incident, but there aren't any neutral sources that speak directly to, say, the contention that Britches was flown to an unnamed(?) sanctuary in Mexico either. And even if it were taken totally from anti-testing sources, there's basically only 1 source here. As it stands, this article would work much better (if significantly expanded) as a summary of Newkirk's book. Otherwise its just a bad summary, yeah? Winick88 09:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "Best says 17 of 18 and Newkirk says 8 of 17. I can't stress this enough. Do you actually have the book?"

Can you say what makes you think that, and cite your source? And when you ask whether I have "the book," which book do you mean? As for sources, we don't need to find "neutral" sources (whatever that means). We use books and articles published by reputable publishers; see WP:NOR and WP:V. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] consider this the discussion

7 entries found for stole. steal Audio pronunciation of "stole" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl) v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals v. tr.

  1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
  2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
  3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
  4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
  5. Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.

Yes, we are aware of dictionary definitions. However, as the above discussion makes aware - it is still a weighted word. In the context it will be used in this article we must have a reference to a court case to prove that it was 'stolen' and we have not got that at present. If you can provide such a reference, by all means do so and then I for one would accept the use of 'stolen'.

But if we are to use your definitions above then I will. First, number 1. This one states 'without right or permission' - the people who removed Britches believed they had the right to do so in order to prevent an extreme level of cruelty. In the eyes of the law this is a defence. If the animal was actually in a situation where extreme cruelty was occurring (as it appears it was, look at the statements of the industry, university and other scientists denouncing the experiment) then a judge could rule that the people who removed the monkey were in fact legally right to do so - so would not have stolen it. This would mean 'liberated' would be a better word...

I do not believe any of the other definitions are relevent to this situation. -Localzuk ^(talk) 10:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The article cites "according to reports filed by the university with the government", but the footnotes are to Latern Books publications. Can anyone firnd the reports? Rich Farmbrough, 11:21 20 December 2006 (GMT).

We don't need to - just look at those references and they explain perfectly.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Although this article is improving, it still reads largely as something promoting animal rights extremism. The "government" references which actually go to animal-rights literature, and the debate about the term "stolen" both bother me. On the other hand, the fact that the majority of the experiments were restarted has now been documented, although again not necessarily from a neutral POV.--Jaibe 22:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

First, the references to the 'government' are discussed in the books of well known authors who are published. We should not be discussing whether they are an appropriate source, as they are a source - if you have something to counter it then please add it along with its source.

The debate over 'stolen' is quite self explanatory and pointless to bring up again. I think we have adequately covered the reasons why 'removed' is a neutral term and 'stolen' is not. How does it disturb you?

The overall feal of the article is that the experiments were denounced as wrong. There are not any claims that the actions of the activists were the right thing to do though.

Everything is well sourced in the article. What exactly is wrong with it?

Overall, I think this is possibly the most NPOV animal rights article on this site.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

References that discuss primary sources should always be to those primary sources, not to relatively difficult to access books that may or may not contain the primary sources. The very act of naming this article after an animal rather than the event of the laboratory assault is a political act. You may well be right that it is the least NPOV animal rights article on Wikipedia, but that does not make it NPOV. Since every time I try to get this article discussed with a tag it gets deleted almost immediately, I am now going to list this article on a dispute page, so that more experienced and knowledgeable wikipedia experts than myself can weigh in. I would not want to see wikipedia descend into being a propaganda tool.--Jaibe 19:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Jaibe, I'm not sure what this sentence of yours means: "References that discuss primary sources should always be to those primary sources, not to relatively difficult to access books that may or may not contain the primary sources."

Can you say more about what you mean, please? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Primary sources are the original source of information, such as a journal article or a historical newspaper account. Derived sources are sources that report on primary sources, such as text books or Wikipedia. In journalism, the primary sources are the actual actors, e.g. "President Putin said" where as derived or secondary sources are people who say they heard someone say something "sources close to the white house report...".

in the case of this article, we read that there are reports filed by the university & given to the government, but the reference we have are neither from the university of California (the original report) nor from the government (which might have an archive of the report) but rather are a book that reported about the report.

if you can't actually get ahold of the original source but you believe they exist, you can (in the worst case) say something like REF Some Scientist, "what happened at the lab last night", UC tech report 2023134; cited by Best, Steven & Nocella, Anthony J. "Terrorist or Freedom Fighters?"... knowing what the original source of that material is is critical to knowing how believable it is, and an important step to being able to check up on it.

Basically, most scientists & journalists don't use popular books as real evidence, because there is no real control on ordinary books except whether the publisher considers the risk of lawsuit greater than the amount they'll make from the book. Universities, Governments, Newspapers & Scientific Journals all have a lot more at stake. Of course their documents might also include lies or inaccuracies, but if they are found to then those institutions suffer. Popular books, Wikipedia, & magazines are good places to learn things quickly, but to make sure you have facts you then have to go back & trace the original / primary sources.--Jaibe 21:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jaibe, thanks, I know what a primary source is, but I was confused about "References that discuss primary sources should always be to those primary sources." In fact, our policies prefer secondary sources to primary ones, but if you want to track down the primary sources in this case, by all means go ahead. The books we cite aren't "popular" books or hard to find, as you argued above, but are histories of the animal rights movement, and in the case of Newkirk, of the ALF. Arguably, the latter is primary source material on the issue of Britches, given Newkirk's involvement in the animal rights movement and, as I recall, her involvement in publicizing the Britches case. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi -- our university library doesn't have them (I've checked) & I am reluctant to buy them because I wouldn't want to risk siphoning any money to a terrorist organization that has threatened the lives and families of my colleagues. The primary sources are the government or university reports that your article refers to, which I would be much happier to pay for (if they aren't on line.)--Jaibe 22:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to find the primary sources, I'd certainly have no objection to including them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV fixed by merge or move?

The people on the WP:NPR page are saying (among other things) that "poster child" articles may have inherent POV issues, because Wikipedia is not a soapbox. This could actually be grounds for a deletion, but that would seem a waste of some decent content to me. Maybe this article could be changed into a more neutral-perspective account of the break in & thefts / removals?

Notice that they also discuss the importance of the references.--Jaibe 22:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)