Talk:British Rail

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Trains Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
	See also: WikiProject Trains to do list
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (assessment comments)
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale within the Trains WikiProject.
	This article is maintained by WikiProject UK Railways.

To-do list	Pending tasks for British Rail:	(purge cache –  edit this list)
	Trim down history, especially where it overlaps with History of rail transport in Great Britain 1948 - 1994 Write articles on each of the regions Western Region, Southern Region, etc which can include more specific details on Beeching Cuts, experimentation with dieselisation/ electrification, etc. Write general articles on diesel locomotives of British Rail to complement List of British Rail classes
See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Todo

Contents 1 Cycling lions 2 Sectorisation 3 Great Locomotive Cull? 4 Regions 5 Pacers 6 Tornado Project 7 Present Locomotives and rolling stock 8 History section

[edit] Cycling lions

The logo which is currently captioned at the cycling lion isn't the one I'd call that. I'm thinking of the one which appeared on loco tenders with BRITISH RAILWAYS with the words separated by a large wheel, with a lion standing over the wheel with its feet on the lettering. Anybody got a photo? -- Arwel 15:32, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is the 1949 "totem" (as logos were called then):

[1]

I seem to recall that it existed in two versions (left- and right-facing lion) to accord with the direction of travel. I'm afraid I don't own the image, however. -- Picapica 21:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sectorisation

What were the five sectors? Intercity, NSE, and Regional Rlys, gives two more, one infrastructure and one freight, but what were they called? Dunc_Harris|☺ 18:41, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They were

1. InterCity
2. Network SouthEast
3. Provincial (i.e., all passenger business not covered by the above two)
4. Freight
5. Parcels

--Picapica 21:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great Locomotive Cull?

That seems to be a neologism; searches for that phrase bring up Wikipedia mirrors. Is there a more commonly used term? —Morven 19:25, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

This statement ('The Great Locomotive Cull') is a complete anomaly. I have never seen it being referred to in any journal, book or piece of comporary literature. I suggest that we re-write the entire paragraph and delete this rather odd piece of phrasing. Neil

[edit] Regions

The article refers to six regions, one of which was "North Eastern Region" - ICBW, but I don't remember there ever being such a thing. I think the regions were just - Scottish, LM, Western, Southern and Eastern (Eastern covering all of the former LNER territories in England as of the 1980s; I don't know which region the former Great Central mainline fell under, though).

Oh you youngster! North Eastern Region was based at York and existed until 1967. -- Arwel 22:16, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not forgetting, of course (as many do), that Anglia Region was split out of the Eastern Region about 1990, a few years before privatisation. -- Arwel (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The Great Central line was originally part of the Eastern Region but was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958. -- Picapica 21:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello, what happened to North Eastern Region, was it merged into Eastern Region? In which year Anglia Region was split out? --Sascha Claus ✉ 16:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the NER was merged into the ER. I can't remember exactly when Anglia Region was split out, other than that it was soon overtaken by "Organising for Quality" and sectorisation, which superseded all the regions, so probably it was the late 1980s. -- Arwel (talk) 23:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pacers

The text refers to Pacers being "one of BR's less successful designs". I would consider replacing life expired DMU's whilst keeping tens of branchlines around Great Britain open anything but a failure. I dislike Pacers as much as the next person, but I believe credit should be given where due. Could the text be changed to something less pejorative? Slipdigby 20:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but I think that's total bollocks mate. What do Pacers do that the Sprinter units can't? Especially in terms of cost.

Sprinters have kept many of the countries rural lines reasonably secure for the last 15 years, I'm thinking of the Cambrian, North Wales, West Highland, Highland, and Far North lines in particular.

The Pacer concept has been nothing if not a complete embarassement to BREL and the railways in general. Neil

Do you have any cost comparisons, Pacer vs. Sprinter? Or are you just guessing?

It seems logical that Pacers should have been quite cheap, given the bus bodies, bus fittings, and rigidly-mounted axles vs. bogies. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to the honourable "Neil", the comparitive costs outlined in "British Rail 1974-97" (Gourvish, T, Oxford University press: 2002, Oxford, Pp:220), the complete authorised cost for the 328 pacer vehicles ordered between 1982 and 1985 came to £57m. The cost for the 568 Sprinter vehicles ordered between 1984 and 1985 was £151m. This means that the average Pacer vehicle cost £0.174m, whilst the average Sprinter vehicle cost £0.266m. Even assuming the effects of inflation on the figures, it is still obvious that there is a significant difference in price between the two types of vehicle.

In regards to how Sprinters have kept the Cambrian, West Highland and so forth open, what of the Esk Valley, Cumbrian Coast, East Lancs, Penistone and Bishop Auckland lines, not to mention the commuter networks of South Wales, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, West and South Yorkshire, and Tyne and Wear. All of the former rely on the Pacer fleet for a large percentage of their network. Guesswork suggests that the people of Millom, Milnrow, Marton and Merthyr would prefer a cheap and nasty Pacer to no railway at all.

Neil, please do your research before accusing me of spouting "bollocks". Ta Slipdigby 11:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tornado Project

I have made a slight change to the paragraph mentioning the Tornado steam engine project. The loco being built is a Peppercorn A1 pacific and not a A1 pacific. This loco class was not originally a A3 pacific. The preserved Flying Scotsman is a A3 pacific and was originally a A1 pacific. LNER Pacific’s This link should clarify my minor changes to that paragraph. --LieLestoSbrat 18:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Present Locomotives and rolling stock

This section (which deals with _current_ matters) is not appropriate to an article which deals with a _historic_ entity. It is also a repetition of the same information in a number of other subjects. I propose that it be deleted or split off as an article in its own right.--MBRZ48 14:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree (anon)

I also agree - it's a nice section, but it doesn't belong in an article on BR, whose history ends in 1997. The inclusion of stock types introduced since then is particularly incongruous. -- Arwel (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History section

As it stands, te history section is about 2,300 words long, only a shade shoter than the supposed "main article" (History of rail transport in Great Britain 1948 - 1994), which is 2,400 words long... and that had only 1,500 words until twelve hours ago! Clearly this is a slightly strange situation.

This article is about a particular historical organisation so any "weeding" ought to be addressed to removal of matters more appropriate to a general history of British railway transport and the deletion/removal of the "off-topic" (as it refers to current matters related to the post-BR period) "Present Locomotives and Rolling Stock" section.--MBRZ48 03:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose merging any non-overlapping content from the history section into the 1948 - 1994 article, and then replacing the history section with something similar (or identical) the overview of the BR era at History of rail transport in Great Britain. This is a lot shorter (~400 words).... or do people feel this is too short? Is there little that can be said about BR over than its history? Tompw 19:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)