Talk:Buddhism/Archive 8
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Request for help on interfaith dialogue
I need help from Buddhists in an attempt to speak of a common ground among believers. Are there any Buddhists here who could either help me or direct me to a group where I might find knowledgeable and mature Buddhists willing to help me for a while explore the feasibility of a universalist Wiki type project on core universal truths such as possibly eternity, sacrificial love, and soul? Tom - Talk 06:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Interesting. I don't really know any Buddhist groups, but I'm curious about your project...could you say more about it? Particularly, what do you mean by "common ground" or "universal truths"; is your project syncretic or echumenical, or what? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:01, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Orkut has a number of useful communities for such an effort, although one would probably need to "fish" for a while. Its main "Buddhism" community is quite good indeed. Luis Dantas
- There's an interesting dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahm at the [BSWA]'s site, entitled "Which yana? Hahayana!", where Ajahn Brahm explores the differences between various Buddhist traditions, and shows that for all their differences, all the core things - the practices, what people experience themselves - remain the same; that all the traditions of Buddhism have way more common ground than differences. If I remember correctly he also draws parellels between the life of a Buddhist monk and that of the Franciscan friars. All their dhamma talks are under the Creative Commons license, so you might find it rather useful. Sciamachy 20:21, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
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- Has anyone heard of or read books by Paul Williams? His questions about buddhism seem to have merit and I wonder if there is any response in buddhism to them. http://www.dharmalife.com/issue19/comment.html
- Unexpected Way: On Converting from Buddhism to Catholicism, by Paul Williams, Continuum 216.99.65.10 13:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Buddhist Population Statistics
Hi folks. What was the source for the 376 million followers statistic? The wikipedia Buddhism_by_country page lists 710 million followers, with 396 million in china alone. It would be good to bring these figures into line with each other or explain the discrepancy. I've read the archives and can't find any info on this. Here's some figures I found in a brief search. Let's document what we consider to be accurate:
- http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html (376 million)
- http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.786353/k.A7EE/World_Religions.htm (400 million)
- Buddhism_by_country (710 million)
- http://www.raceandhistory.com/worldhotspots/sixreligons.htm (500 million)
- http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/bud_statwrld.htm (360 million)
- https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html CIA World Fact Book (381 million) Done by calculating %6 of world population.
I guess they've been taken at different times, yet it would be great to have a figure we can update regularly. I'd be inclined to use the figure we also use on Buddhism_by_country (710 million) because it seems well documented and I've seen it published elsewhere (though, can't find it now). The other ones appear to be citing each other at different times. Peace. Metta Bubble 03:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
In deference to the work done on the Buddhism_by_country page I've updated the adherent count in the introduction to 708 Million and linked to the Buddhism_by_country page. RandomTask 00:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Principles of Buddhism
I would like to propose that 3.7 to 3.9 to be moved to somewhere else. I think 3.9 "Vegetarian" section is growing too big. Idea presented in 3.1 to 3.6 are shared by all Buddhist schools. Moreover they are core principles of buddhism On the other hand, vegetarianism, karma, buddha-nature, meditation, though important, is not the central philosophy of buddhism. My proposal is to create separate two new section, move 3.7 to 3.9 into it and expand on it. One is "Buddhist Practice" with subsection being, for examples, 1)Precepts (monk/nun and lay), 2) Meditation (Vipassana/Samatha, Tantric, Zen 3) Chanting 4) Vegetarianism 5) Dana and so on. The other section being "Buddhist World View" in which the idea of Karma, Rebirth, Dependent Origination, 6 worlds are explained. Tell me what you think. Yoji Hajime
No one responded to my proposal for 24 hours so... Anyway, I have reduced "Principles of Buddhism" to "Three Marks of Existence", "Four Noble Truth" and "Noble 8 Hold Path". I should remind you that the section is still somewhat large.Yoji Hajime
- I don't know Buddhism well. In chatting on Yahoo, religion, Buddhism I find there is an enormous variety of belief and practice. I find it almost impossible to talk about people for the basic idea (call it philosophy) which prompted the young man who founded Buddhism to leave his wealthy home and seek his idea of man's spiritual existence. As I understand it the 4 Truths and 8 Fold Path are but practices, the center of Buddhism has to do with an individual's ability to be causative to their own mind, (enlightenment). The practices yield toward enlightenment and that is why they are practiced. But the central idea, that an individual might know themselves better, it is hardly confronted or talked about in Yahoo Chat. Instead the 'trappings' of it such as the 4 Noble Truths, 8 Fold Path, vegatarianism, etc. are talked about. Terryeo 16:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Practices of Buddhism
I basically dumped everthing which is not "3marks, 4tthruth and 8path" in here. I know some section such as Buddah nature doesn't belong here. But I would like see if people are happy with my edit regarding "3M, 4T and 8P".Yoji Hajime
Improvement Drive
Meditation is currently a nominee on WP:IDRIVE. If you would like to see this article improved vote for it on WP:IDRIVE.--Fenice 15:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Pāpayāna = the Vehicle of Sin?
I can't find a single reference to this word in google. What is the source of this claim? Yoji Hajime
There is a discussion about this addition going on in E-sangha, and no one can find any official reference for this word. The closest thing found was that a few people said that they heard the word used informally in Sri Lanka. I think the addition of this word needs to be referenced or removed. --Dorje Shedrub 02:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Question for Discussion
I want to start a discussion about using the styles "Lama" and "Rinpoche" in the Category:Lamas, but not sure where this discussion should take place. There was no talk page there, so I started one Category Talk:Lamas. Can someone tell me if there is a better place, and also, how do I notify editors that work in that area to give comment? --Dorje 23:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Prose and Focus in the Introduction
The prose of this article grows worse with each passing edit. We need some people to take some passes at sections of the article to ensure that it is still readable. In-regard to 'focus' in the introduction; keep in mind that it is an introduction. It isn't a place to be excessively meticulous. An example is a recent snippet of the first paragraph:
Buddhism, a religion and philosophy from ancient India, is based on the teachings of the Buddha, Siddhārtha Gautama, of the Shakyas. His lifetime is traditionally given as 566 to 483 BCE and spread from India throughout Central Asia, Sri Lanka, Tibet, as well as East Asian countries such as China, Korea, and Japan. It is classified as an Ārya dharma ("Noble religion"). It is one of the shramana religions existing today.
The first line uses needlessly broken prose and contains information unneccesary at this point in the article (i.e. 'Shakyas'). Someone made a grossly careless edit on the second line. Additionally, dissagreements about the Buddha's lifetime can be addressed in the article on the Buddha, we just need a ball-park in the introduction. Referencing "India" as the origination point twice is redundant. Tracking the spread of Buddhism in the end of the second sentence is incomplete and inconsistent (some countries and some sub-continents). It would be better served by a link to the Timeline of Buddhism article and referencing just sub-continents or just countries. Finally, the last two lines are excessively esoteric especially in regards to the first paragraph and I suspect that their addition was due to historical non-NPOV initiatives. If they're important at all they can be added to a later sub-section or to a companion article.
I've changed the first paragraph to the following:
Buddhism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of the Buddha, Siddhārtha Gautama, who lived in what is now Northern India between 566 and 483 BCE. The Buddha's teachings spread throughout the ancient Indian sub-continent in the five centuries following his death. It continued its spread into Central, Southeast, and East Asia over the next two millennia.
RandomTask 19:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This page is pretty much unreadable as an introduction to Buddhism. Many people would be confused as to what Buddhism is. Let me copy edit. I won't delete anyting but might shift non core issue (such as Mahayana-Theravadan interpretation) to the bottom. Yoji Hajime
Parents weeping and wailing
Can someone please give a reference for this comment in the article:
- "In other versions of his life-story, the Buddha leaves home in the "prime of his youth", his parents weeping and wailing all the while."
It needs some backing up I believe. Peace. Metta Bubble 02:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- From the Maha-Saccaka Sutta: [1]
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- So at a later time, when I was still young, black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life, having shaved off my hair & beard — though my parents wished otherwise and were grieving with tears on their faces — I put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.
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- Hey thanks Eequor. That might be a good ref to add. Should we remove wailing? Or is there more? Peace. Metta Bubble 06:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Another translation has: [2]
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- Even in the prime of youth, with black hair, against the wish of mother and father, when they were crying with tearing eyes, I shaved head and beard, donned yellow robes leaving the household became homeless.
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Introduction
This section required radical surgery. Before you object to my edit, please look at here, here and here. The previous introduction is an exemplary demonstration of religious sectarianism at work. FWBOarticle
Overview of Buddhist Denomination
Well, when the majority of the section is about denomination, it is better to call the section for what it is. Obviously, this section should be moved downward in the entire article. FWBOarticle
- So you're suggesting we remove your edits because they don't belong? Forgive me for asking but are you just trolling us? Peace. Metta Bubble 12:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- I actually intended to eliminate the remaining portion of introduction but then I realised that the remaining portion could possibly survive as another section. I should point out that the entire article is already whooping 71 kilobyte, more than twice the recommended wikipedia article size of 32 kilobyte. If anyone have one look at the introduction of 4 major religion, it is obvious who are trolling here. Too many people are using the front article as if it is an internet forum. If people doesn't like me saying the emperor has no cloth and he is hediously obese (71kb), tough. I'm currently holding my razor knife, watching my intro edit to settle. I just shaved hair from the head, and I intend to go down to more fatty part of the anatomy. If you don't like my edit, fine. Just demonstrate better surgical work and I'm happy. FWBOarticle
- I agree. I just looked at the "four noble truths" section, and it largely duplicates the Pratitya-samutpada article – without linking to it. The article should be a short overview that links to main articles on each topic. — goethean ॐ 16:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, great then. May I suggest that you do all this razor knife editing on a subpage called Buddhism/workshop. You'll then have free reign to make all the edits you like and no one will revert you. Once you've finished in peace we can merge the new article based on merit. Peace. Metta Bubble 01:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, it won't work. There is no way to argue the merit of an entire article. The debate should be limited to the specific edit of paragraph/sentence/section. Plus, I already done that in my intial wholesale edit which didn't go down well. I will make cut section by section. This page is way off from wikipedia style guid so this isn't about subjective debate about me and you. In fact, you have so far avoiding this issue. Do you accept that this article (72kb) ought to be reduced or not? Or do you still want to continue the current trend of sectarian disambiguation which has been upping the size of this article slowly but constantly. FWBOarticle
- Okay, great then. May I suggest that you do all this razor knife editing on a subpage called Buddhism/workshop. You'll then have free reign to make all the edits you like and no one will revert you. Once you've finished in peace we can merge the new article based on merit. Peace. Metta Bubble 01:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. I just looked at the "four noble truths" section, and it largely duplicates the Pratitya-samutpada article – without linking to it. The article should be a short overview that links to main articles on each topic. — goethean ॐ 16:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- I actually intended to eliminate the remaining portion of introduction but then I realised that the remaining portion could possibly survive as another section. I should point out that the entire article is already whooping 71 kilobyte, more than twice the recommended wikipedia article size of 32 kilobyte. If anyone have one look at the introduction of 4 major religion, it is obvious who are trolling here. Too many people are using the front article as if it is an internet forum. If people doesn't like me saying the emperor has no cloth and he is hediously obese (71kb), tough. I'm currently holding my razor knife, watching my intro edit to settle. I just shaved hair from the head, and I intend to go down to more fatty part of the anatomy. If you don't like my edit, fine. Just demonstrate better surgical work and I'm happy. FWBOarticle
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- Yep, you're right about the merit issue. The chances of getting 100% your own way are slim. But that's a good thing. That's what consensus is about really. Actually, I'm not really editing this article at all so I'm not too fussed either way. It's great that everyone seems to concur the entire article suffers if an edit war is started on multiple sections simultaneously. If you stick to discussing your edits to one section at a time I would support your edits getting a fair hearing here on the talk page. I have little experience about the most effective process for trimming an article, and I haven't read any guidelines published on this yet (a pointer would be good if an article exists). Peace. Metta Bubble 23:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
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"This page is 55 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable"
Great, so called fresh start already require another fresh start. Anything which is in Archive7 should be wiped out or we need to make Archive 8 now. FWBOarticle