Talk:Bullying

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• Archive 1
• Archive 2

Contents 1 Cleanup 2 Zeraeph's side 3 Let's Keep it Verified and Cited Please 3.1 Why we must be careful with verifiability and citations 4 Bullycide 5 School Bullying Prevention Act 6 Protection Rackets and Gang Culture

[edit] Cleanup

I've added the OTRS cleanup tag to the article per ticket number 2006122210009701. Thanks, Martinp23 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zeraeph's side

Has Zeraeph done anything at Wikipedia that made you think that he or she is a bully? How about a target? How about a bystander? What is it that he or she did? Why did you think like that? ~~ Raistlin Majere ~~

Hi Raistlin, it's ok, it's just somebody I know for years who wanted his own way and didn't get it.

Over the years a lot of people connected to abuse support related issues have got used the internet as a place where they can just wake up one morning and announce that they are an expert in something, and then reinforce it by promoting themselves as an expert on as many sites as possible, particularly those where you can self publish text.

They aren't all bad people, they don't all mean harm as such (very few really do, they just want kudos and affirmation), what they don't understand is that nobody gets to be an *expert* through personal experience, enthusiasm and opinion alone. The sad part is that, as you watch them, over the years, they seem to get more and more spiteful and unscrupulous with every obstacle they encounter, and it seems that, whatever abuse they began by opposing, becomes nothing more than a pejorative term for anyone who does not give them blind, unquestioning support.

Another thing these people never seem to understand easily is that Wikipedia is not just another self publishing site where they can promote their self appointed expertise. Wikipedia is a serious attempt at a serious encyclopaedia, where information must be verified from reliable sources, and where recognised and qualified expertise trumps all claims, and that a serious Wikipedia editor is only interested in running down and posting that information, not in promoting personal agenda.

Sure, anyone can edit, but there are a feck of a lot of us, who take Wikipedia very seriously, to jump on, and revert, misinformation, often in minutes rather than hours, and we do. --Zeraeph 12:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's Keep it Verified and Cited Please

I just had to remove a lot of text, some of which suggested important information to me, all of which was posted in a single hour without one single citation.

It even included the dreaded words: "I estimate one person in thirty has this behaviour profile. I describe them as having a disordered personality"

See WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a showcase for your personal opinions and ideas, whether they be good, bad or indifferent. It is an encyclopaedia of verifiable information that must cite valid (see WP:SOURCE) and verifiable (see WP:V) information.

Apart from which I honestly cannot imagine a case where the word I should appear in a namespace...unless in paranthesis, as part of a quote. --Zeraeph 10:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, anything with "I" should definitely be removed or edited unless it's quoted or in an appropriate place such as The King and I or I Love Lucy. --Deathphoenix ʕ 21:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why we must be careful with verifiability and citations

There is an growing volume of subjectivity, partial information and misinformation on this topic on the internet posted by self appointed experts, most usually individuals who self report as "victims of bullying", which, however well -intentioned they may be, makes them too subjective and inclined to over identify to the point of not just POV but some serious distortions.

The trouble is it is just TOO EASY fall into the trap of assuming that some of this misinformation is established and verified fact or academic theory, when, too often it is just one person's, subjective, thinking.

I think it is very important on Wikipedia to dismiss all that misinformation and get back to established and verified fact or academic theory, from reputable sources and objective experts.

I personally feel bullying is a very important topic and that we owe it to those who have been bullied, are being bullied and will be bullied to present the most thorough, valid, objective and balanced information we can find.

Because of the plethora of misinformation already available, I am hoping we can try to achieve this by sticking to citing sources that people can, at least partially, check for themselves, rather than obscure paper only sources?

Let's do it, huh? --Zeraeph 12:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bullycide

I know this might not be the best place to put this, but why the hell was the bullycide article deleted? Thomasiscool 22:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know there WAS a bullycide article? Explain please? --Zeraeph 22:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullycide. FWIW, I would have closed the AfD as delete as well. Heck, the first sentence of the article even reads "Bullycide is a neologism used by the 2001 book..." (emphasis mine) --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the AFD alone I would have voted to delete myself!--Zeraeph 13:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Zeraeph, and I think its an important subject that's worthy of an article. Thomasiscool 22:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you may mistake me, because I certainly do not think "Bullycide" a word invented, rather cynically, to promote a book in 2001, is an important subject at all. Though I do think bullying and it's devastating effects is. --Zeraeph 23:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Me neither. I actually contributed somewhat to the article to add a few examples of people dying as a result of bullying, but since this word is a neologism (I guess I should have paid attention to the first sentence!), I fully agree with the delete decision. --Deathphoenix ʕ 02:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. But is there someplace else we can put the information from that article, perhaps a section in the bullying article? Thomasiscool 19:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that is a really valid point that was occurring to me, because, though the word may be new and artificial, the phenomenon of people being literally bullied to suicide is very real and very significant.

Maybe you could come up with something? Always remembering that the more valid, verifiable and reliable the sources, the more significant the subsection will be and the more impact it will have on readers...and, out of respect for those who have been literally "bullied to death" I would like to see the subsection have a great deal of impact. --Zeraeph 20:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I may be biased against "fictional examples", but I went to the deleted article and looked at the real-life examples. If we decide to use these examples, I'll probably need to undelete the history of the bullycide article and redirect it to bully to preserve GFDL attribution requirements. Therefore, please just look at these examples and discuss them before we put them in the main article. I need to preserve GFDL before we put this content up:

• Curtis Taylor committed suicide on March 22, 1993 when he went into his bedroom and shot himself in the head after three years of bullying.
• Thirteen-year-old Jared High was brutally assaulted by a known schoolyard bully. After he and the bully were both suspended, he became depressed, and eventually committed suicide.
• Twelve-year-old Debbie Shaw died from injuries received from fighting a bully at a British school.
• Jean Evans, a teacher in the West Midlands, committed suicide because of bullying from students. Another teacher at the same school committed suicide shortly afterwards.

Remember, these need to be cited per Wikipedia:Citing sources. Right now, Jared High is the only one to contain sufficient information to be included. We'll need some sources for the other three before we can include them. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

We already have Curtis Taylor as an example of school bullying. Debbie Shaw should really being in the school bullying section too, because her tragic end was not suicide but certainly needs recognition. I think what we need most are not so much case histories as academic abstracts specific to suicide induced by bullying? --Zeraeph 20:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Many victims of abuse commit suicide, especially when no escape seems possible and after PTSD develops. Don't know how the term bullycide would fit in here, but term needs mention in section detailing emotional and physical damage to victims.

What is far more unique in bullying is how bullied victims sometimes take revenge by murdering classmates and coworkers. While it is relatively rare for a victim to seek retaliation, bullying revenge results in mass murders, often indiscriminate, and then suicide by the victim.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.94.161 (talk • contribs).

Do you have some reputable and verifiable sources for these assertations that meet the criteria laid out in WP:RS? Otherwise I am afraid they are not suitable for inclusion.--Zeraeph 22:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Whom are you addressing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.94.161 (talk • contribs).

I am addressing you. Please try to remember to sign your comments. --Zeraeph 23:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

About what? Been looking over the past month. You have done some excellent organising work here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.94.161 (talk • contribs).

Please try to remember to sign your comments. Also, please find reputable and verifiable sources for your assertions, particularly before posting them in the article namespace. --Zeraeph 00:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As a word, "Bullycide" means bully-kill, not "death by bullying". So it applies to bullies being killed by their victims, not how sometimes victims of bullying commit suicide. In any event, the word should be used in a reliable source before we use it in this article. --GunnarRene 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Not aware of that, given all focus on suicide. Simply excellent. The author who coined it not sufficient source? Woe be to Buckeyballs, then.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.94.161 (talk • contribs).

In accord with concensus of the AFD, the author who invented the word would not seem to be sufficient source. Please sign your comments with two dashes and four tildes, thank you. --Zeraeph 01:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Zeraeph is right, according to the article and the AfD, the term "bullycide" is a neologism invented in a book and is of insufficient notability to warrant its own article. The concept of people dying through bullying (whether by suicide or homocide) itself is not new, so therefore, examples of this may warrant inclusion in this bullying article, as long as the examples are well-sourced. BTW, in case Zeraeph wasn't clear enough, it's best to sign your comments using the following four characters: --~~~~ --Deathphoenix ʕ 02:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're looking for sources, just google "bullycide". I guarantee there will be more than enough results. And like I suggested, we wouldn't necessarily have to even use the word "bullycide". If, for example, it was a section in this article, it could be called "Cases of death as a result of bullying" or something to that effect. Thomasiscool 20:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Though I don't think we should use the word "bullycide" (there is too much jargon and too many faddish "buzz words" already, without making more) if you look under "Effects of Bullying" you will see that a small beginning already sort of made itself on introducing the topic of death due to bullying. --Zeraeph 21:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Then it seems to make sense to add to that. The word "bullycide" doesn't even need to be mentioned. Thomasiscool 01:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Since everyone seems to agree on this issue, I have added the examples from the defunct Bullycide article to the Effects section of this article, plus a source. If anyone doesn't agree with this, please discuss changes before making them. Many thanks, Thomasiscool 23:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The additions are fine, but they really do need to be properly cited. The only citation included is basically from a one man website that does not satisfy WP:RS in this capacity. There surely must be press sources? --Zeraeph 00:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The only problem now is getting permission to use the sites. ZackM 01:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)ZackM

Fortunately there is no need for permission to cite publically accessible articles. As I have now done. --Zeraeph 01:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I was just looking for some sources myself. However, I have added Reena Virk as an example, because I think we should have at least one example that was not suicide. Thomasiscool 01:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Totally, that is brilliant...also it would be a shame to miss out any other deaths that are the subject of WP articles? --Zeraeph 01:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent addition. As a fellow Canadian, I should have thought of Reena Virk immediately. Actually, these cases set a good precedent, they either have their own articles or are properly sourced. --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Definately felt the list needed a bit of "internationalising" too myself. Truth is, when you go looking there are SO MANY examples of children dying in a manner that has been connected to bullying that it would make your blood run cold. The important thing is to only include those examples where the connection has been established beyond allegation.

I would also like to include an example of at least one adult conclusively proven (which rules out Deepcut Barracks which, as far as I know is still contested) to have died as a result of bullying. --Zeraeph 11:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Were you thinking of adults dying as a result of workplace bullying or as a result of bullying by youth? Thomasiscool 23:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Either, both...it's not important, what IS important is that they be verifiable, and established to be bullying related, not just claimed or alleged to be (or worse, sub judica)...that's why it wasn't possible to use Jean Evans, there is no way of knowing to what extent the claim was substantiated, or even what form the bullying took. --Zeraeph 23:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and on another note, I think we should consider making the names of the examples we have, except those who already have their own pages, to redirect to this article. Any thoughts? Thomasiscool 23:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

On this I don't know...not sure how it would sit with criteria for notability? Also, if the search engines pick it up how will it add to the search listings? I would love to honor all these people to the limit...but there are SO MANY of them, we cannot even begin to list all the established cases, just examples, and every one of them is equally important. Let's see what others have to say?

A further thought, might there be a sufficient case for a List of people who died due to bullying article, with a cited paragraph for each case, to be able to list more of them? --Zeraeph 23:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Its starting to sound like a good idea, since there are so many cases. And I agree that we should include some examples from outside North America, though these seem to be hard to come across, unfortunately. Thomasiscool 15:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] School Bullying Prevention Act

In Delaware, United States ... and perhaps in other states ... legislation has appeared in the form of the "School Bullying Prevention Act" [1] which aims "to provide a safer learning environment for students attending public schools". I am not familiar with the topic in general and thought I would mention this here in case anyone would like to pursue it from any suitable angle. Regards --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection Rackets and Gang Culture

It just occurred to me that protection rackets are organised, profit-orientated bullying and a large part of the Gang Culture consists in ritualised bullying. Shouldn't both be mentioned here with links to main articles? Particularly if we can find sources for some academic research into the bullying aspects of either phenomenon to cite? --Zeraeph 18:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I refer to bullying as "butt-kicking". —Flatts