Talk:Catalan people
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[edit] Ethnicity
What a mess.
- Catalan people are the people from Catalonia. — Yeah, mostly, though it's all a matter of how you define "Catalonia". For example, plenty of people from north of the border in France would consider themsleves Catalan, alghought they do not live in the region now commonly known as Catalonia. And I suspect that some Balears would also consider themselves Catalan, though not having spent time there, I'm unsure.
- A language that mainly is spoken by Catalans is Catalan. — Horribly put, at the least. Also very ambiguous. Does this mean that most Catalan people speak Catalan (probably true)? Or that most people who speak Catalan are, in the narrow sense Catalans (probably not, or barely so, since Catalan-speaking Valencians and Balears taken together are at least roughly comparable in number.
- Among Eastern U. S. Hispanics as well as Cuban Hispanics Catalan origin can been found more often of than among Hispanics in general. — Again, horribly put. "…more often of than among…"? Does this mean to say that Catalans form a higher percentage of U.S. and Cuban Hispanics than they do of Hispanics worldwide (possibly true, but I'd want to see a citation)? or that Catalans form the majority of U.S. and Cuban Hispanics (very unlikely, to say the least)?
- Native speakers of Catalan have an overall majority among the most famous Spaniards. — Extremely unlikely, very POV (who decides who is the most famous?). Just of the top of my head, none of the most world-famous Spanish political figures are Catalan; in the arts, while Catalans have been very important the last 125 years or so, prior to that time names like Velázquez, Murillo, Goya, and Zurbarán leap to mind: they are not Catalans. In literature, I cannot think of a Catalan whose fame approaches that of Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Calderón de la Barca or, in the New World, Sor Juana, Gabriel García Marquez, or Jorge Luis Borges (who I think was part Catalan, but did not, to the best of my knowledge, ever write in the language; he did spend a year or two in Mallorca as a young man, so I'm sure he picked up at least some of the language).
- Hey! Many historians believe and have strong evidences that Cervantes was catalan and that Don Quixote was firstly written in Catalan. It's believed that it was a book to ridiculize the Castilians, but when the Castilian rulers saw it, they translated the book and tried to erase all the evidences that Cervantes was catalan. And that happened with many things, like with Cristopher Columbus: everybody knows he was Catalan. The problem is that, once again, the castilians tryed to make it castilian. They have always did the same: they turn into castilian everything that smells to catalan or basque.
-
- You can check this: http://www.histocat.cat/hta/v31_09.htm. It's a document from the Foundation of the Historical Studies of Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.35.221.98 (talk • contribs) 10 December 2006.
- This includes Salvador Dali and Pablo Picasso. — Actually, while it certainly includes Dalì, it probably shouldn't include Picasso, who was from Barcelona, but (I gather from discussion elsewhere on Wikipedia) was not a Catalan. (Picasso was from Malaga, Andalusia) Felipealvarez 17:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC))
- The current status of the Catalans has caused dispute amongst academics as to whether they should be labelled a distinct ethnic group or merely a distinct group of Spaniards. — Now we come to the equal and opposite mess. The only respectable dispute in academia I've ever heard of as to whether Catalans are a distinct ethnic group is among those who define ethnicity primarily in terms of ancestry, where it is pretty hard to say that anyone in Iberia (except the Basques) is ethnically distinct. After all, over the course of the millennia, Iberia has been quite a melting pot. If Catalans are not a distinct ethnicity, then neither are the Portuguese.
- The fairly distinct Catalan language would seem to agree with the idea of being a unique ethnic group — Fairly distinct, indeed. As in "Russian is fairly distinct from Czech".
- however cultural differences with other Spaniards are a lot less distinguishable. That's rather relative. Arguably, cultural differences among Western Europeans aren't that dramatic, but we don't lump them all into one "ethnic group". Catalan cuisine is distinct enough that anyone who knows their way around it could easily tell the difference blindfolded, probably even from eating a slice of bread; I haven't ever noticed any castellers, geganters, or dancers of the sardana in Andalucia (and it is only recent migration that has brought flamenqueros to Barcelona). Make a date for 20:00 with a Catalan and, while they probably won't be there on the dot like a New Yorker or a Prussian they'll be there by 20:15; make that same date with a madrileño and if you show up even at 20:30 you'd better bring something to read. I could go on. Yes, there are some traditions common to pretty much all of Iberia, but the Catalans are no less distinct than the Portuguese, whom we would never call "Spaniards".
- After reading your whole, mostly sensible complaint, it comes to a big shock your comment on Catalonians being punctual while Madrileños are tardy. I assume you're trying to be funny, but you sound snobby. Quite similar to some readings by dearest Sabino Arana. 128.195.88.18 06:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I've been heavy-handed in my criticism, but this topic deserves an article, and I don't think we have even the right start of one here. - Jmabel | Talk 01:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel, Picasso was not from Catalonia nor from Barcelona, he was born in Malaga (like Antonio Banderas) which is down south in Andalusia,the other side of Spain.--Burgas00 23:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Btw, I agree with u this page sucks....--Burgas00 23:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Picasso: Born in Málaga, raised at least partly in Barcelona, but the point is the same: he's not a Catalan. - Jmabel | Talk 00:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
U dont think Catalans are ethnically distinct? They look pretty different to me. Those who dont, tend to have some immigrant origin (from other parts of Spain). On average Catalans are thin nosed, fairer and generally a "french looking" people.... :-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burgas00 (talk • contribs) 13 Jan 2006.
I think there is quite a bit of variety in Catalan physiognomy, and while the type you mention is common in Catalonia (Dalí leaps to mind) certainly there are famous Catalans who do not fit the stereotype. Two eminently Catalan examples provided. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
hehehe... its true one cant generalize. This Josep guy does look Bulgarian actually! In Spain Jordi Puyol is compared to Yoda from Star Wars. But, it is true they generally fit the description I gave... Look at the folowing Catalans I just thought up out of the top of my mind:
- "Tricicle" ( Catalan comedians, look up "Paco Mir"),
- "els joglars" (theater group- look up "Albert Boadella"),
- "Javier Sarda"(latenight presenter),
- "Mercedes Milá" and "Lorenzo Milá" (bigbrother presenter and news presenter).
- "Duran i Lleida", nationalist politician from CiU.
- "Pau Gasol", Catalan Basketball player in the NBA.
All these guys, u see them and u just know they are Catalan... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burgas00 (talk • contribs) 14 Dec 2006.
What about Valencians and people from the Balearic Islands??? Are they to be considered Catalans?? They say they are not (specially Valencians). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.37.18.88 (talk • contribs) 16 Jan 2006.
Many andorrans consider themselves as andorrans rather than catalans. They're quite a unique people due to the relative historical isolation. Though obviously they are genetically, linguistically and culturally mixed with the catalans, but probably no more so than are the irish with the english - and you don't want to tell the irish that they're english!
- Why are you speaking for the Valencian people? I am Valencian and my people and the Catalan people are brothers :) Violenciafriki 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Should we write about the Estatut?--Burgas00 23:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
When will we have the pleasure of reading the articles of "Barcelona people" or even better the " St Andreu people"? And later we should add the asturian people, the "Oviedo people" and, don't forget the "calle Uría people", they are clearly a different ethnic group... xD xD desternillante¡!81.9.222.4 22:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with drilling down like that, as long as the larger entities are also covered. For example, you might look at how the various Jewish ethnic divisions. This includes some quite tiny groups (e.g. Romaniotes, the now-extinct Chuts) where there were cultural distinctions worth making. - Jmabel | Talk 21:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well, personally I don't think this is wrong but strange to find out a page like that. In the spanish wikipedia, at least, it would be something unacceptable to make up a page about "catalan race" or "ethnic". Nonetheless this is english wiki, the anglosaxon view and world. Anyway the wikipedia's definition of an ethnic group says;
- An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Recognition by others as a separate ethnic group, and a specific name for the group, also contribute to defining it. Ethnic groups are also usually united by certain common cultural, behavioural, linguistic and ritualistic or religious traits. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. Processes that result in the emergence of such a community are summarized as ethnogenesis.
So according to this, it would be perfectly reasonable to create one called "asturian people", wouldn't it? 156.35.192.3 18:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that "Austrian" probably isn't much anyone's ethnic identity. Most Austrians consider themselves ethnic Germans. I would guess that there is a far stronger sense of specific ethnic identity among Swabians, Saxons, or even Bavarians than among Austrians. Insofar as there is such an identity in Austria, it is more likely to be on a smaller scale than the country as a whole: e.g. as a Lower Austrian or a Tyrolean (the last of which would certainly also include the German-speakers now in Italy). And, I believe, all of these would consider themselves subgroups of ethnic Germans. - Jmabel | Talk 20:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I see now (someone called my attention) that this was a question about Asturian people, not Austrian people. Asturians historically have a distinct language; there certainly are differences between Asturian culture and (say) Castilian culture; I don't know a ton about Asturias—unlike Catalunya, I've never spent any time there—but I haven't heard that people there generally consider themselves a distinct ethnicity, nor, as far as I know, has there been any prolonged time in history in which they constituted a power in their own right (except maybe the early 1930s!). I believe we have an article on their language, certainly could use an article on what is specific to their culture. I think it would be harmless to have an article that treated them the same way we treat an ethnic group, but I don'think it is harmless not to.
- To analogize to my own ethnicity: we have articles on Jews and Ashkenazi Jews; we don't have a separate article on Litvak Jews, though I'd have no principled objection to having one, there certainly are some distinct aspects of that history, and Litvak Yiddish can certainly be distinguished from other dialects of Eastern Yiddish. - Jmabel | Talk 18:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Extremely unlikely, very POV (who decides who is the most famous?). Just of the top of my head, none of the most world-famous Spanish political figures are Catalan; in the arts, while Catalans have been very important the last 125 years or so, prior to that time names like Velázquez, Murillo, Goya, and Zurbarán leap to mind: they are not Catalans. In literature, I cannot think of a Catalan whose fame approaches that of Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Calderón de la Barca or, in the New World, Sor Juana, Gabriel García Marquez, or Jorge Luis Borges (who I think was part Catalan, but did not, to the best of my knowledge, ever write in the language; he did spend a year or two in Mallorca as a young man, so I'm sure he picked up at least some of the language).
-
- Hey! Many historians believe and have strong evidences that Cervantes was catalan and that Don Quixote was firstly written in Catalan. It's believed that it was a book to ridiculize the Castilians, but when the Castilian rulers saw it, they translated the book and tried to erase all the evidences that Cervantes was catalan. And that happened with many things, like with Cristopher Columbus: everybody knows he was Catalan. The problem is that, once again, the castilians tryed to make it castilian. They have always did the same: they turn into castilian everything that smells to catalan or basque.
-
- You can check this: http://www.histocat.cat/hta/v31_09.htm. It's a document from the Foundation of the Historical Studies of Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.35.221.98 (talk • contribs) 10 December 2006.
- This includes Salvador Dali and Pablo Picasso. — Actually, while it certainly includes Dalì, it probably shouldn't include Picasso, who was from Barcelona, but (I gather from discussion elsewhere on Wikipedia) was not a Catalan. (Picasso was from Malaga, Andalusia) Felipealvarez 17:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC))
- The current status of the Catalans has caused dispute amongst academics as to whether they should be labelled a distinct ethnic group or merely a distinct group of Spaniards. — Now we come to the equal and opposite mess. The only respectable dispute in academia I've ever heard of as to whether Catalans are a distinct ethnic group is among those who define ethnicity primarily in terms of ancestry, where it is pretty hard to say that anyone in Iberia (except the Basques) is ethnically distinct. After all, over the course of the millennia, Iberia has been quite a melting pot. If Catalans are not a distinct ethnicity, then neither are the Portuguese.
- The fairly distinct Catalan language would seem to agree with the idea of being a unique ethnic group — Fairly distinct, indeed. As in "Russian is fairly distinct from Czech".
- however cultural differences with other Spaniards are a lot less distinguishable. That's rather relative. Arguably, cultural differences among Western Europeans aren't that dramatic, but we don't lump them all into one "ethnic group". Catalan cuisine is distinct enough that anyone who knows their way around it could easily tell the difference blindfolded, probably even from eating a slice of bread; I haven't ever noticed any castellers, geganters, or dancers of the sardana in Andalucia (and it is only recent migration that has brought flamenqueros to Barcelona). Make a date for 20:00 with a Catalan and, while they probably won't be there on the dot like a New Yorker or a Prussian they'll be there by 20:15; make that same date with a madrileño and if you show up even at 20:30 you'd better bring something to read. I could go on. Yes, there are some traditions common to pretty much all of Iberia, but the Catalans are no less distinct than the Portuguese, whom we would never call "Spaniards".
- After reading your whole, mostly sensible complaint, it comes to a big shock your comment on Catalonians being punctual while Madrileños are tardy. I assume you're trying to be funny, but you sound snobby. Quite similar to some readings by dearest Sabino Arana. 128.195.88.18 06:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I've been heavy-handed in my criticism, but this topic deserves an article, and I don't think we have even the right start of one here. - Jmabel | Talk 01:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel, Picasso was not from Catalonia nor from Barcelona, he was born in Malaga (like Antonio Banderas) which is down south in Andalusia,the other side of Spain.--Burgas00 23:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Btw, I agree with u this page sucks....--Burgas00 23:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Picasso: Born in Málaga, raised at least partly in Barcelona, but the point is the same: he's not a Catalan. - Jmabel | Talk 00:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
U dont think Catalans are ethnically distinct? They look pretty different to me. Those who dont, tend to have some immigrant origin (from other parts of Spain). On average Catalans are thin nosed, fairer and generally a "french looking" people.... :-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burgas00 (talk • contribs) 13 Jan 2006.
I think there is quite a bit of variety in Catalan physiognomy, and while the type you mention is common in Catalonia (Dalí leaps to mind) certainly there are famous Catalans who do not fit the stereotype. Two eminently Catalan examples provided. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
hehehe... its true one cant generalize. This Josep guy does look Bulgarian actually! In Spain Jordi Puyol is compared to Yoda from Star Wars. But, it is true they generally fit the description I gave... Look at the folowing Catalans I just thought up out of the top of my mind:
- "Tricicle" ( Catalan comedians, look up "Paco Mir"),
- "els joglars" (theater group- look up "Albert Boadella"),
- "Javier Sarda"(latenight presenter),
- "Mercedes Milá" and "Lorenzo Milá" (bigbrother presenter and news presenter).
- "Duran i Lleida", nationalist politician from CiU.
- "Pau Gasol", Catalan Basketball player in the NBA.
All these guys, u see them and u just know they are Catalan... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burgas00 (talk • contribs) 14 Dec 2006.
What about Valencians and people from the Balearic Islands??? Are they to be considered Catalans?? They say they are not (specially Valencians). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.37.18.88 (talk • contribs) 16 Jan 2006.
Many andorrans consider themselves as andorrans rather than catalans. They're quite a unique people due to the relative historical isolation. Though obviously they are genetically, linguistically and culturally mixed with the catalans, but probably no more so than are the irish with the english - and you don't want to tell the irish that they're english!
- Why are you speaking for the Valencian people? I am Valencian and my people and the Catalan people are brothers :) Violenciafriki 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Should we write about the Estatut?--Burgas00 23:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
When will we have the pleasure of reading the articles of "Barcelona people" or even better the " St Andreu people"? And later we should add the asturian people, the "Oviedo people" and, don't forget the "calle Uría people", they are clearly a different ethnic group... xD xD desternillante¡!81.9.222.4 22:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with drilling down like that, as long as the larger entities are also covered. For example, you might look at how the various Jewish ethnic divisions. This includes some quite tiny groups (e.g. Romaniotes, the now-extinct Chuts) where there were cultural distinctions worth making. - Jmabel | Talk 21:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well, personally I don't think this is wrong but strange to find out a page like that. In the spanish wikipedia, at least, it would be something unacceptable to make up a page about "catalan race" or "ethnic". Nonetheless this is english wiki, the anglosaxon view and world. Anyway the wikipedia's definition of an ethnic group says;
- An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Recognition by others as a separate ethnic group, and a specific name for the group, also contribute to defining it. Ethnic groups are also usually united by certain common cultural, behavioural, linguistic and ritualistic or religious traits. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. Processes that result in the emergence of such a community are summarized as ethnogenesis.
So according to this, it would be perfectly reasonable to create one called "asturian people", wouldn't it? 156.35.192.3 18:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that "Austrian" probably isn't much anyone's ethnic identity. Most Austrians consider themselves ethnic Germans. I would guess that there is a far stronger sense of specific ethnic identity among Swabians, Saxons, or even Bavarians than among Austrians. Insofar as there is such an identity in Austria, it is more likely to be on a smaller scale than the country as a whole: e.g. as a Lower Austrian or a Tyrolean (the last of which would certainly also include the German-speakers now in Italy). And, I believe, all of these would consider themselves subgroups of ethnic Germans. - Jmabel | Talk 20:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I see now (someone called my attention) that this was a question about Asturian people, not Austrian people. Asturians historically have a distinct language; there certainly are differences between Asturian culture and (say) Castilian culture; I don't know a ton about Asturias—unlike Catalunya, I've never spent any time there—but I haven't heard that people there generally consider themselves a distinct ethnicity, nor, as far as I know, has there been any prolonged time in history in which they constituted a power in their own right (except maybe the early 1930s!). I believe we have an article on their language, certainly could use an article on what is specific to their culture. I think it would be harmless to have an article that treated them the same way we treat an ethnic group, but I don'think it is harmless not to.
- To analogize to my own ethnicity: we have articles on Jews and Ashkenazi Jews; we don't have a separate article on Litvak Jews, though I'd have no principled objection to having one, there certainly are some distinct aspects of that history, and Litvak Yiddish can certainly be distinguished from other dialects of Eastern Yiddish. - Jmabel | Talk 18:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is full of inaccuracies while not simply lies. It's a debatable issue if Catalonia is a nation, is what the Spanish constitution calls a nationality or simply a region, but what is not debatable at all is that Valencia or the Balearic islands aren't part of Catalonia in any way (and never have been). The so-called Catalan Countries are an invention of Catalan independentists and when I say Catalan I mean from Catalonia, the traditional region or current Autonomous Community. Let's write about facts and not about opinions or inventions. I mean, the map shown correponds to the zones where varieties of the Catalan language are spoken according to linguists and on some of that regions people don't even accept that they speak Catalan (most Valencians say they speak Valencian). Anyway, is Argentina a part of Spain just because they speak Spanish? By the way, I challenge anyone to show just one scientific study that proves any ethnic difference between the Catalans and the rest of Spanish population. Let's talk about facts and not about inventions. Say to a random guy from Valencia or Alicante that he's Catalan and your best option is probably run as fast as you can. Many people in Catalonia complain about a cultural opression (especially under Franco), which is true but there is a sector in Catalonia that have invented a past and a history that is simply a lie: they say that Catalonia was independent (when it has always been a part of a bigger entity), also that there has been a Catalan empire (Catalonia was a region in Aragon Crown), they say there was a Catalonia-Aragon confederation (try to find something different from the term "Aragon" when referring to the historical kingdom in Middle Age sources), etc.--83.70.43.179 22:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Nationalism
I'm really inclined to cut the following: "The roots of Catalan nationalism stretch back to the earliest era of Visigothic rule and show a continuous pattern towards independence." For one thing, projecting any nationalism back into the Middle Ages is extrapolation: we are talking about an era where nation states as we know them simply did not exist. For another thing, what on earth is "a continuous pattern towards independence"? Although there was much back and forth, Catalonia's independence and autonomy steadily eroded from the 14th century to the mid-20th century. A mere 35 years ago, Catalonia was part of a centralized Francoist Spain that was attempting to crush the last vestiges of independent Catalan identity. Obviously, Catalan autonomy has been renascent since the restoration of democracy, but few would say that even today Catalonia is at all obviously on the path to independent statehood.
If someone can replace this with something more accurate, great, but if that doesn't happen in the next few days, I will simply delete this. - Jmabel | Talk 05:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I support Jmabel 's point of view. --Joan sense nick 22:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bull
They eat "young cows and no bulls"? Very unlikely: since one needs far more cows than bulls for breeding, husbandry almost everywhere in the world culls more (young) bulls than cows for meat. Is there any basis at all for this claim? - Jmabel | Talk 23:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- Cows are sacrificated young (before the 12 months) for eating. Adult bulls are seld to France where are more apreciated. If you go to a Catalan supermarcket you'll see that sell "carn de vedella" that means "meat of young cow". There are laws regulating the quality of this type of meat. 81.36.160.44 17:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Diet
I don't want to get in a big fight over this, but it's mostly uncited also:
- "The digestion of the English diet use to be considered hard by the Catalan people": quite a generalization, no citation.
- What once said "In the Catalan gastronomy, sausages (embotits) are very important, especially pork sausages such as botifarra or fuet'" now says "In the Catalan gastronomy are very imporant the embotits, derivates of pork such botifarra or fuet." As far as I can tell, this is mostly an introduction of really bad English; there is only one thing here that is possibly in the right direction: while embotits is certainly not an English word, are you saying that it means something other than sausages?
- "Hod food in rare in Catalan diet but there are sauces quite hod such allioli or romesco." Pretty bad English again; "hod food"?? A "hod" is a type of sling for carrying a heavy load. Perhaps "hot" in the sense of "spicy"? But in my experience allioli and romesco are no more than mildly spicy.
Jmabel | Talk 23:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I see that someone is including Valencian and Balearic people in the very first paragraph (they even mention "over 7 million" in the template)...I'd go and cut it, but I just had enough recently of nationalists coming to wikipedia so that they can make real here their wildest dreams, which they don't manage to do in real life so, this time, I will just make the boy happy and focus it what REALLY matters: ¿? "The digestion of the English diet use to be considered hard by the Catalan people"????? That's hilarious, man! who had the guts to write this in a so called encyclopaedic article and still keep a straight face? He does deserve a barnstar by all means...LOL Mountolive 07:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Young cows" must be "calves", or so I'm guessing. Gotta go: I'm getting hungry...Mountolive 07:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Valencian, Balearic and Catalunya Nord People
Isn´t this page a little too focused on catalans from Catalonia? I mean, if it includes all the people from the catalan speaking world as a same ethnic group, it should also include their pecualiarities and explain their differences, while at the same time, making clear the points in common that identify them as a single ethnic group (language, traditions, etc). Violenciafriki 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is a peace of crap. The Catalans who have contributed to this article should be especially ashamed of their cultural illiteracy and editorial & linguistic incompetence. There are descendents of Catalans in the Western Antilles (namely Cuba and Puerto Rico, much less so in the Dominican Republic), they do NOT speak Catalan, most have NO clue that they "are" Catalan, if asked most will ignorantly claim French descent. Catalan is extremely similar to Occitan, unfortunately modern Catalan pronunciation has been vitiated by the degenerating influence of the Spanish-language media and nonnative-speaker pronunciation. In English it is spelled Catalonia, it is as wrong to write "Catalunya" in English as it is to write "London" in Spanish (please get this into your heads). Catalonia is, outside of Europe, unfortunately known for nothing except "tapas," "Barcelona," "Dali" (if that), and (I laugh) "Freixenet Cava" ("Xupa Xups" are no longer Catalan). I could go on...bizca catalunya (oh excuse me!) I meant to say visca.--Marsiliano 04:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don´t feed the troll ;). Now, is there anyone interested in talking about the whole (too much) Catalonia focus in this article? Violenciafriki 11:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Language
"although Spanish and/or French is universally spoken". Seems to me that elsewhere (was it Talk:Catalan language?) someone was being very strong in asserting otherwise, and pointing at some of his own relatives as counterexamples... - Jmabel | Talk 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
What is tha basis for saying that Valencian is "considered by most of its native speakers to be a separate language"? Certainly the Valencian Academy does not hold that opinion: they agree about the unity of the language, they just prefer to call it valencià rather than català. - Jmabel | Talk 00:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Food for thought
I’m new to this topic of Catalonia and Castile Frankly I’ve never heard of this type of discussion, I mean no disrespect but is there something every one here is neglecting to mention? For example; are Catalonians saying there being oppressed by the bigger stronger part of the country Castile? Are the Spanish Oppressing ethnic groups in their country? Is Valencia people and Catalan people considered minorities? I read something about Catalans are better (not in these words) then Spaniards (castile) why? If they are better why couldn’t they simply over power Castile they had plenty of time to do so? My point is, the Castile controls the country they deserve respect from there states, respect by making Spanish the official language, of course respect should be mutual but then again it is Spain not Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.171.84.64 (talk • contribs) 21 December 2006.
- Without at all engaging in concepts like one national or ethnic group somehow being "better": Catalans and Castilians certainly have different histories, different native languages, and (insofar as national character can be generalized) a pretty distinct national character (though in this last respect, perhaps no more different than, say, Andalusians and Castillians). I don't think many would single out Catalans as oppressed at present, but I also think that few would deny that they were culturally oppressed as recently as the Franco era.
- Historically, Catalunya was swallowed up into (and arguably dominated) the Crown of Aragon, which then merged with the Crown of Castile to form modern Spain. I think there is little question that insofar as one of these became politically dominant within Spain, it was Castile. At some times in history, Spain has been relatively multicultural, and that political domination has nonetheless allowed for cultural and even juridical autonomy. At other times, though, when centralizing tendencies have had the upper hand, those centralizing tendencies have always favored Castilian political domination, and while they have not always favored the language and culture of just Castile, they have invariably been unfavorable to Catalonia. (The regions besides Castile that are universally considered Spanish—Andalucia being a particularly good example—have not generally suffered comparable cultural oppression in recent centuries, though they have at times suffered political oppression.) - Jmabel | Talk 01:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)