Talk:Catherine of Aragon

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Contents 1 Family Tree 2 Wives of Henry VIII box 3 Escape 4 Chronology of Catherine's testimony that marriage with Arthur had not been consummated 5 Why? 6 Mistake in Chronology 7 Father/Brother? 8 image missing??? 9 Chelmsford? 10 Catherine / Katharine

[edit] Family Tree

I'm putting this here for the convenience of anyone trying to sort out the genealogy:

Edward III of England
|

John of Gaunt
____________________________|____________________________

| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

John Beaufort (~1373-1410) | John Beaufort (1401-1440) | Margaret Beaufort | Henry VII of England |

Joan Beaufort | Cecily Neville | Edward IV of England | Elizabeth of York |

Catalina (wife of Henry III of Castile)
|

John II of Castile
|
Isabella I of Castile
|
Catherine of Aragon

- married -

/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Henry VIII of England . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /

|____________________________|____________________________|

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[edit] Wives of Henry VIII box

There is a small box to the right side of this page which lists the wives of Henry VIII in (presumably) chronological order with links to each of them. I noticed that on the Anne Boleyn page this box wasn't there, making the series inconsistent. If anyone can copy the box to that page it would be useful, unfortunately, I don't know how to. It might be worth checking the pages of his other wives too, so that the box appears on all six pages. 81.78.72.35 17:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

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Which pope was it who wouldn't divorce them?

Clement VII. Deb 15:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)

wow. that was fast! thanks :-) -- Tarquin 16:08 26 May 2003 (UTC)

The second portrait also illustrates Elizabeth of York!--Wetman 22:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whoever wrote: "It is also interesting to note that, after Catherine, there was not a princess of Wales until the 18th century." Doesn't seem to have looked very deeply into these facts, as Mary I (her own daughter) was Princess of Wales, and Elizabeth I was long after and before Catherine had died.

Mary I and Elizabeth were never officially created "Princess of Wales". They may have been treated as the Princess of Wales, but no woman has ever held the title in their own right. Prsgoddess187 00:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"Princess of Wales is a courtesy title held by the wife of the Prince of Wales since the first "English" Prince of Wales in 1282. The title is held through matrimony alone; it arrives with marriage and departs with divorce". Ah, I see ;) Thanks.

Wrong. Princess Charlotte, daughter and only child of George IV was Princess of Wales in her own right. It is not held through matrimony alone.Paul75 00:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, I am afraid, Paul. The woman in question was Princess Charlotte of Wales (Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales). Because her father was Prince of Wales, she held the courtesy title 'Of Wales' (the Queen was 'Princess Elizabeth of York' before her father succeeded). Just as Catherine of Aragon was so called because her father was King of Aragon, rather than because she was herself Queen of Aragon. Charlotte died before her father ceased to be Prince of Wales, and thus couldn't have been Princess of Wales anyway. Michaelsanders 00:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Mary I did have the title of Princess of Wales in her own right when it was evident that Henry VIII would not have any sons. She lost the title though when she was declared illegitimate.

No, Henry installed her in Ludlow as de facto Prince of Wales - i.e. all the rights and ceremony of the Prince of Wales - but she was never granted the title - that would have required a change in the law, and such was not made. Michael Sanders 15:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Escape

Why didn't Catherine arrange for an escape to Spain rather than be isolated in miserable castles? 24.168.151.153 04:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Had Charles V, Spanish King and Holy Roman Emperor not been so troubled by Martin Luther and the vexations of the German Princes, King Henry VIII might have payed a heavy price for this insult to the Crown of Spain and the Habsburg family for his treatment of Queen Catherine of Aragon.

Henry VIII could sever the heads of his other wives at his whim, but he knew that if he had done so with Queen Catherine, it might have meant the loss of his kingdom to the forces of the Spanish Emperor. There was no such thing as a viable English Navy at that time. The Spanish Habsburgs had a nasty reputation of invading and conquering other countries, Italy, Mexico, Peru etc. England under Henry VIII was a minor power in Europe.

[edit] Chronology of Catherine's testimony that marriage with Arthur had not been consummated

On this page, and others, it is stated/implied that Catherine testified that the marriage with Arther had not been consummated, and that she did this soon after the death of Arthur and before being betrothed to Henry. This is at odds with other material which says that Catherine produced this testimony not until many years later, when Henry was seeking to have their marriage annulled. The Pope's dispensation that allowed Catherine to become betrothed to Henry was not based on the alleged non-consummation. Indeed, if the non-consummation was "known" at the time, then a dispensation would not have been required! --Anthony Duff 22:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Her duenna, Dona Elvira told everyone that the marriage had not been consummated after Arthur's death, and the Pope did grant a dispensation.

It was insisted - I think by the Catholic Kings, though I don't remember for sure, and don't know why - that the weasel word forsitan be inserted into the declaration regarding Catherine's marriage - so that it read 'probably unconsummated' (possibly so that Catherine could keep her dowry). Michael Sanders 15:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that the only other person who could have testified that the marriage had been consumated (Henry VIII) would never testify under oath. Hmmmm. Kevin Q.

You mean that Henry would have noticed on their wedding night that Catherine was a virgin, or not? --Anthony Duff 22:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It was a common belief back then that a virgin would bleed during her "first time".

Henry VIII had a nasty habit of killing off his closest relatives or anyone else that might have a claim to the throne. What male relative was there left to challenge him?

Anne Boleyn was loved by the English people just as much as Camilla is adored by them now. Behind her back she was known as the King's whore. When Camilla is crowned Queen of England there will be the same reaction. Disgust. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.133.73.39 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 23 May 2006.

Like hyperbole much? 85.210.6.241 21:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why is the article called "catherine of aragon", while throughout it she is refered to as "Katherine" Sotakeit 16:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Because 70.109.16.241 changed all C's to K's, including in the Spanish material, which is definitely incorrect - and it was the only edit by this user. I think this qualifies for obvious vandalism, so I'm restoring the "C" version. Valentinian ^(talk) 20:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Surely saying Henry 'chose to believe' that Catherine was lying about the lack of consummation is rather POV: it claims to see that he was somehow fooling himself. Perhaps 'apparently believing'?

82.3.241.230 19:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted all but 2 mentions of Katherine to Catherine, which also fixing the issue with images due to a earlier user's search-replace from Catherine to Katherine, I know her grave is marked Katherine, but I don't know about her final letter, how did she sign it? TacoJim 19:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I think someone should make a section in the beginning of the article discussing her name. It's actually spelled with a C and a K.

? Michael Sanders 15:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake in Chronology

Why is the trouble caused Catherine's father Ferdinand about the dowry and his betrayal of the English cause mentioned after the events of 1520 and directly before Henry wanted an annullment in 1527? Ferdinand died in 1516 and the mentioned events logically happened before this. It might confuse people not familiar with the correct chronology. Tom 11:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Father/Brother?

this edit was unsourced. Is it correct? AndyJones 12:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not correct. Arthur had been dead for 7 years when Henry married Katherine. He later claimed he had done so in accordance with his father's dying wish. Pvc.mermaid 22:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] image missing???

What happened to the image ? --Filll 23:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Should be back now, they went missing when someone replaced all 'Catherine's with 'Katherine' - there were no images with that name... TacoJim 19:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chelmsford?

Did she really live in Windsor House, Chelmsford? Citations? TacoJim 19:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Why is she called such a good person when she killed innocent Protestants?

K/Catherine of Aragon didn't kill protestants, her daughter did. And it's am opinion if she's a good person. And then people forced others to convert and all, and Europe was filled with Christians mostly Catholic. I'm not saying I agreed with any of that . . . I totally hate how her mother, Isabella of Castile, tortured and killed innocent Muslims who were actually in Spain before her. Iman S1995 03:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It isn't known if K/Catherine's marriage was consummated . . . In 'The Constant Princess' by Philippa Gregory it says that their marriage was consummated but she was not with child, and she lied about her being a virgin so she could marry Arthur's brother and become Queen, since she had promised Arthur that she would marry his brother so she could become Queen of England and defend them from the Scots. The book was an entire work of fiction, but you never know . . . Iman S1995 03:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

172.133.73.39, I agree about what you said 'bout Camilla and Anne Boleyn. Lady Diana and K/Catherine were so much better. Iman S1995 03:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catherine / Katharine

I always believed her name was spelt Katharine, and that was how she signed her name. Opinions anyone? Most works on her life seem to use the "K" form, her tomb uses the "K", and the council in Peterborough (where she is buried) use the "K"Paul75 20:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Google search, and go with the most common form. Michaelsanders 20:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just been doing some research, and I There is an image of Katharine's signature at http://www.geocities.com/tudorhist/tudor.htm and it is undoubtedly a "K" (despite the actual website using a "C"!!!). The potrait in the National Portrait Gallery is signed "Regina Katharine", and I think most convincingly is that Henry's famous "loveknot" carvings where Henry's initial's are intertwined with his wife's are all "H & K", not "H & C". I don't really accept that the name "Catherine" is the most common form, as both seem to be used widely, and I believe that the evidence indicates that Katherine / Katharine is the correct spelling. "Catherine" just seems to be a lazy mistake.Paul75 20:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Nonetheless, we use the most commonly used form. What she called herself is not particularly relevant - this is English wikipedia, so we use the most common English form of her name. If that is Katharine, use that. If that is Catherine, use that. But this issue needs proper discussion. Michaelsanders 21:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Google results: "Catherine of Aragon"=213,000;"Katherine of Aragon"=42,500;"Katharine of Aragon"=15,800;"Catharine of Aragon"=9,440. Michaelsanders 21:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think what Katharine of Aragon called herself is extremely relevant! We are talking about a human being here, if she called herself Katahrine/Katherine then that is her name, not what someone else decides hundreds of years down the line. I can see no justification for calling someone by another name to what they called themselves. As she was known as Katharine/Katherine in her lifetime, and her tomb is inscribed with Katherine, I see absolutely no reason to spell her name Catherine. Katherine/Katharine is not even a foreign name or spelling, it is widely used, Katharine Hepburn springs to mind. This is an encyclopedia after all which has to be academic, not popularist. In this case, it is sheer misconception and laziness that has transferred her name over the years to Catherine. I also believe there is no historical proof of the spelling Catherine spelling, so we should we ignore historical fact? Paul75 22:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Then why aren't we calling her Catalina? Or the Latin form of Catherine? Why don't we name foreign nobles of history by their native forms, instead of anglicised forms? Why don't we name mediaeval monarchs with the mediaeval forms of their names? Catherine is the most commonly used form. It is not for us to set our faces against established ideas based upon our own beliefs. Moreover, your assertions that Catherine is a mistaken form is unsourced and speculative. Spellings were not standardised at that time (Anne Boleyn's surname is also spelt Bullen), so one spelling does not trump another. Moreover, you claim that the tomb spells the name Katherine, which already goes against your assertion that her name is Katharine. Which it isn't. Her 'true name', as I said, would presumably be Catalina, or whatever it was in mediaeval Castilian. The simple truth of the matter is that if most academics, and most search results, use Catherine, then that is what has to be used, unless you can produce an accepted historical refutation of that spelling, and an accepted English spelling as Katharine/Katherine. Michaelsanders 23:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

And as for the signature, it is illegible, and the words are indistinguishable, to the point where it needs to be explained as that of Catherine in order for one to see any resemblance. And in any case, it appears to say Katharina the Queen. Michaelsanders 23:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The "K" in her signature is clearly discernible. Henry VIII, an Englishman, most clearly thought her name started with a "K" as there are no "H&C" loveknots carved across the country, only "H & K". Yes, her name was anglicised to "Katharine / Katherine", unless you can find proof that her contemporaries referred to her as "Catherine" I strongly believe that the historical proof is on Katharine / Katherine as being her correct name. The results of a Google search are not exactly academic, and I'm sure you will find that a majority of academics refer to her as Katherine / Katharine. I am not disputing that the spelling "Catherine" has been attached to this queen for many years, but the historical proof is overwhelmingly in favour of Katharine / Katherine. I do not have any prejuidice either way, but I believe Wikipedia entries should be as academic as possible. As regards to Boleyn/Bullen, I understand Bullen to have been a former spelling of the family name which the family corrupted to the less common "Boleyn" as they rose to power. Anne herself used the "Boleyn" spelling as is evidenced by her signature on documents, including her andn Henry's petition to the Pope. Paul75 00:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, I'm sorry, but wikipedia does not traffic in what you 'think' or 'believe'. It requires verifiable sources, and reputable historical evidence and support. Your belief that she was called Katherine/Katharine is irrelevant; what is relevant is historical views. If the form 'Catherine is more commonly used, then that is what we must use. If you can find a reliable and accepted historical argument that she should be called Katherine, use it. If you can't, then the fact that 'Catherine' is more commonly used by the English (as evidenced by google) trumps your beliefs. If you want to find a lexigraphical crusade, choose Anne/Anna of Cleve(s). Or Kateryn Parr (as she signed herself). Or why not Guillaume le Batard? Michaelsanders 01:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not dealing in my personal thoughts or beliefs. You are ignoring the fact that I HAVE come up with "verifiable sources and reputable historical evidence". I'm dealing in hard historical fact, not my irrelevant beliefs - her tomb, her signature, her husband, her portrait are all rather watertight. Despite your protests, most encyclopedias are not written on what comes up on Google. They are written on historical facts. I've provided the historical facts that prove the most legimate spelling is with a K. If you can provide a compelling historical fact (apart from Google) that her name should be spelt with a "C", I will bow to your superior knowledge. Paul75 01:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The portrait is irrelevant. One portrait of Anne Boleyn refers to her as Anna Bolina. Portraits cannot be taken as solid evidence of name spelling, because names were spelt inconsistently at that time. The same goes for the tomb (if it is even of her time; and it spells the name Katherine, not Katharine, as you asserted). The signature is illegible, appears to spell the name as Katharina, and is irrelevant today (as I pointed out, Catherine Parr signed her name 'Kateryn'). You need to understand that spellings at that time were not consistent - so there was NO one way, no official way of spelling a name - especially when the multi-language factor is considered. What we must do is go with either the accepted modern view, or the accepted assertions of a historian that one spelling is pre-eminant. You have produced neither; you are merely engaging in OR, and basing it on 'seems', 'think', 'believe' - none of which are acceptable. You need proper historical evidence that it should be spelt Katharine/Katherine (and which of those should it be?). Otherwise, your unsourced assertions that the spelling as Catherine 'is just lazy' and that "it is sometimes spelled as Katherine or Catherine, but wrongly" fail to trump the acceptable wikipeia criteria provided by google - which shows that 'Catherine of Aragon' is the most commonly used form of her name, and therefore required by wikipedia standards (just we have an article on 'Lady Jane Grey', rather than 'Jane of England', or 'Queen Jane of England'). Michaelsanders 01:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You may also be interested to know that your 'uncontroversial' request to have Catherine of Aragon moved to Katharine of Aragon has been removed from the list by User:GTBacchus: "rm Catherine of Aragon request - the current name is based on the most common spelling in English language sources, per WP:COMMONNAME"

You should also read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). And I have no idea what you mean. Please stick to the subject at hand. Michaelsanders 01:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the name be spelt how it was when she was alive? Aren't most Katherine's of that era spelt with a "K"? I agree that just because it is common doesn't make it right. There was a common consensus about the way Tutkhamen was pronounced, (toot-em-car-moon, not tootemcarmen)but that was discovered to be wrong only in the past few years, same kinda thing isn;t it? Furtive 01:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well...no. It is monumentally unlikely that we at wikipedia have just made the discovery of the age - that 'Catherine of Aragon' is in fact called 'Katharine of Aragon'. Or 'Katherine of Aragon'. If that is indeed the case, there will be reliable and attested assertions by known historians that her name should be spelt 'Katharine/Katherine', and that 'Catherine' is wrong. If not, then what is most likely is that, once again, it is an example of the results of inconsistent spelling at that time, which produced inconsistent results, and which left no 'offical' spelling. In which case, we have to go with the most commonly used form of name. Which, I repeat, is evidenced as being 'Catherine' (no-one has produced any evidence that it is 'Katherine/Katharine'). Michaelsanders 01:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And stop being so partisan, Paul. This is an issue for academia, not for personality or beliefs. Produce proper sourcing to the effect that we should spell her name Katharine, in line with policy. Don't base it on what you think, base it upon what historians think. Michaelsanders 02:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I understand what you are saying. What i meant was that sometimes something that is commonly used is not correct and should not be used in a academic context. like houses of parliament/palace of westminster etc. maybe it's the same with "K" and "C", i think there's a cause for both, maybe we could intorduce a section in the article about the different spellings? it is interesting what you write about jane grey, I think that is a different matter , Lady jane Grey is the most commonly used name, but she can legimately lay claim to all the varieties you mentioned, where as catherine / katherine of aragon can only have one legimate form of her name. i think it's an interesting debate though! it would be great if more people could contribute, because you guys obviously feel passionate about your respective sides!!! I'm a traditionalist, so i'm going to go for the "K" ....no offence to anyone :) Furtive 02:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, in the case of Catherine, you can't say she only has one legitimate form of her name - there is her Spanish name, her Latin name, and the various spellings of her English name. And if academic historians can't decide what to call her, then we are obliged to run with the most commonly used English form she is named by - Catherine. Yes, it is arguable that she spelled her name Katherine/Katharine/Katharina (in which case, produce a reliable argument of that), but that isn't a fait accompli here - as I have pointed out, Katherine Parr signed herself as Kateryn. No-one calls her that, however.

As for Jane Grey, that was a long ago result of the 'common name rule' being invoked - she could legitimately be titled as 'Queen Jane' or 'Jane of England' (and is listed as such in the succession box) - but few call her by the former, none by the latter, and everyone calls her Lady Jane Grey. It's just a wikirule we have to accept. Michaelsanders 02:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

My two cents - nothing can be said for the usage at the time as current and popular usage dictates the use of "Catherine" rather than any other form. We needn't be restricted by usage of the time when there were things that were olde, countries were ruled by kynges or what have you. Just as differences in language exist (we refer to Francis I of France and not François) there are also differences in time. Present day usage is Catherine. Charles 02:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

yay more contributions! Furtive 02:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, putting in my opinion as a professional academic historian (not to brag, but just to maybe add some research backed authority), I can tell you a few things about this. To quote to you from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, her name should be Katherine in a professional publication, but acknowledge the alternate spellings (Catherine, Catalina, Katherine of Aragon). The listing for Katherine reads at the heading " Katherine [Catalina, Catherine, Katherine of Aragon] (1485–1536), queen of England, first consort of Henry VIII." Later, the article states "There was some discussion of whether Catalina, or Katherine, as her name was invariably spelt in England in accordance with contemporary usage, should accompany her husband on his return to his duties as prince of Wales at Ludlow." I have personally always seen it spelled with a K, and most scholars use the K spelling in their writings (not all do). I'd stick with the K as it seems to be the most widely accepted spelling amongst scholars and laymen as well. Brakbudy 03:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)brakbudy

Just another useful tidbit, she was named after Isabella's grandmother, Katherine of Lancaster, daughter of John of Gaunt. Her Castilian name was also Catalina, but spelled Katherine with a K in England. Just adds another point in the "Katherine with a K" column. Brakbudy 03:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)brakbudy

Hmm, this is a tricky question. Obviously her name was an anglicisation of the Spanish Catalina; I checked out the corresponding article on es.wikipedia and it doesn't offer any further clues as to how her name was spelt in English. From a quick Google search, "Catherine of Aragon" brings up 211,000 hits, while the alternate spellings "Katharine" and "Katherine" bring up 51,000 and 40,000 respectively - but I'd also say that just because Catherine is the most common form in modern usage, that isn't necessarily how it was spelt in Tudor English. I'd have to suggest a compromise: keep the existing name of the article (the other names redirect to it in any case) but add the words "Also spelt as Katharine or Katherine" in the opening sentence. We have to remember that making our own decision based on historical evidence would violate WP:NOR - it's probably best to go with the spelling that's most commonly used in contemporary use, regardless of whether it's right or not. Walton monarchist89 10:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Go with that by all means (try to give a source for the use of the alternates, then it can't be meddled with). Even footnote some of the evidence that she spelt it as Katharine/Katherine - provided it is sourced. Just don't violate the rules. Michaelsanders 11:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel I must point something out. The Tudor English spelling seems undoubtedly to have been Katherine. That would be because almost anyone who knew how to spell also wrote Latin, and Latin has almost no K's, instead using a hard C, so Catherine would have also been used. And so it seems that, to refer to this woman, Catherine has emerged as clearly the most common name in Modern usage. Katherine may be the "correct" form, or at least was at one point, but it is not the most common. Therefore, no move. But yes, do include one note, possibly a footnote, in the opening to note spelling options. – DBD 12:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, the biggest problem here is that no-one appears clear on whether the 'correct' form was 'Katherine' (which, according The Oxford Minidictionary of First Names is the correct form of the name in English) or 'Katharine' (an early variant, affected by katharos). That being the case, we'd be more justified in going with Catherine (most commonly used name) than in choosing Katharine over Katherine, or vice versa (since, unless there was a proper historical source indicating one way or the other, or a clear historical judgement, it would be our own - unacceptable - decision). Michaelsanders 13:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

K.--Couter-revolutionary 14:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

A or E? Michaelsanders 14:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

E, I think.--Couter-revolutionary 14:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And the basis for that thought? Michaelsanders 15:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

So what I think we can gather from the debate is that Katherine/Katharine is the correct spelling of her name, but Catherine is the most common. As brakbudy pointed out, it it the "K" form that should be used for professional articles, so where does that leave Wikipedia? Should the more common "C" spelling of her name be used for Wikipedia when the acceptable academic usage is for the "K"? I don't think that reverting to using the "C" just because agreement can't be reached on the "A" or "E" in Katherine/Katharine is the solution. I definetely agree that there needs to be a line in the introduction stating the various spellingsPaul75 21:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)