Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs

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Their graves are made inaccessible by the cenotaphs that cover them. That's a curious statement. A cenotaph is a monument to someone buried somewhere else. I can't imagine anyone being more important to the custodians (past or present) of this site than the people buried here! So who are these cenotaphs honouring? Is there some explanation I've missed? Andrewa 07:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Limited access? 2 How about a picture of the cave? 3 Reverted edit 4 " in the Judean part of what is collectivelly known by the world as the West Bank." 5 Segragation? 6 Caption of the lead picture 7 "Judaism considers the site the second most sacred site" 8 Citations and Unreferenced 9 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre 10 Status

[edit] Limited access?

"Despite Israeli control of the West Bank, access by Jews remains limited."

Removed this statement. I question this because I saw settlers going in and of the site many times, and Jewish tour groups were in the area several times while I was in Hebron last month. The above sentence implies that there are active restrictions to Jewish access. If this is accurate, would someone like to clarify the nature of these restrictions? AW

Jews are only allowed access to 20% of the cave and are only allowed acces to Isaac's Tomb which is included in the 80% about 9 days a year. I don't know why Muslims care about Isaac'c Tomb for. They call the "mosque" they built there the "Ibrahami Mosque" so I don't know why they don't care about Abraham's Tomb instead.

Hebron has been a Jewish city for 4,000 years. Instead of calling it a "Palestinian" city say who lives there and let people decide for themselves what kind of city it is. I think Palestinian is a propanda term itself but if you insist on using it you should include the Jewish position as well. The government of The State of Israel does not have the authority to decide what is a Jewish city and what isn't. It was a Jewish city before there ever was a State of Israel and it is in fact the second holiest city in Judaism only after Jerusalem. It was the first property that Jews bought in The Land of Israel stretching back to when Abraham bought it to bury Sarah.

Actually, "the Muslims" didn't build a mosque, the redid the Jewish monument that was already there, and renamed the site the "Ibrahimi Mosque". The building is little changed from the expansions made by Herod the Great. Tomer ^TALK July 4, 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Actually "the Muslims" didn't redo a Jewish monument already there. The Herodian complex was just the outside walls, there was no roof. Byzantine Christians added a basilica. Persians destroyed the basilica. Egyptians captured it from the Persians and built a mosque on the ruins. Crusaders converted the mosque to a church. "The Muslims" (specifically Saladin) then reconverted it back to a mosque. --User talk:FDuffy 19:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I live in the West Bank and have visited the Ibrahimi Mosque severally times. Due to my direct experience, things I have seen with my own eyes, I find it misleading to say that 81% of the building is controlled by Muslims, because, regardless of how much space the mosque occupies and how much space the synagogue occupies, in fact access to the building is effectively controlled by the IDF and you have to pass about 3 checkpoints to get in. Certain Palestinian Muslims are not allowed in, depending on their residency in Hebron, the West Bank or Israel and I (from Ireland) was harassed by the soldiers when I was going in, being asked personal, irrelevant questions about my religion before being allowed in. So, true "control" is in the hands of the Israelis, as they decide "arbitrarily" who gets in and who doesn't.

I am a Christian (Roman Catholic) and I visited the Cave of the Patriarchs in March 2006. As I was with a group of Muslim friends, I did not go to the Jewish entrance, so I can only speak of entering from the side assigned to Muslims. We went through a few IDF checkpoints. At the last one, immediately before the entrance, the IDF soldier asked my friend who went first in the group in Arabic if we were all Muslims. He began to explain that all were Muslims but one was Christian, but the soldier cut him off and asked again, "All Muslims, right?" and he waved us through after taking away our cameras. Luckily, due to my Mexican heritage I could pass as Palestinian, and know how to do Muslim prayer, so I shut up and blended in. As we were performing the noon prayer, the soldier entered the mosque and returned our cameras! (As I recall, we had to show our passports, so the American passports may have induced the guard to return the cameras.) So I was able to provide the photo of the cenotaph over Abraham's tomb provided in the entry. Had the guard actually been told that I was Christian, I do not believe the IDF would have allowed me to enter, but that's my impression. Most of the people in the mosque were old men, and I was told by my Palestinain friends that younger Muslim men are often denied access. -- Ericstoltz 20:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Next time you visit with a camera, could you please take photographs of the cave entrance from a distance (so you can see the structure over it), of the mosque roof (from the inside, so that the vaulting can be seen), of the northwestern courtyard from the ground, of the cenotaphs of Jacob or Leah from a distance (so that the wall decoration and octagonality is clearly visible), of the Mamluk staircase on the outside, of the castle/Joseph's cenotaph, and of the 7th step on the outside? Thanks in advance. --User talk:FDuffy 19:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about a picture of the cave?

I tried to find a picture of the cave on Google, and all that came back was the Mosque. Is picturing the cave not allowed or something? I can't believe there isn't a decent picture out there. I think a picture of the actual cave should lead the article. The Ibrahimi Mosque can be placed further down somewhere. Can anyone upload a good picture of the cave? --AladdinSE 01:29, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know that anyone has access to the actual cave. When I visited in 2006, you could squint and peer down into a shaft of the cave through a metal grate, and you had to look really hard to see a votive lamp about 20 feet down and an accumulation of written prayer requests on the ground of the shaft, about 40 feet down. The openings on the grate did not permit me to take a photo. -- Ericstoltz 20:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Only 1 person is known to have entered the cave complex since the 12th century (a girl named Michal - here is a photo of her entering the cave [2] through the tiny metal grate), there an additional unconfirment claim that a former director Israeli Antiquities authority got into the cave (with permission from the waqf) in 1981; there is also a claim on a website that a gang of youths managed to get in. None of these took photographs. Michal took measurements. The grate does not look into the cave, but instead looks into a Herodian chamber above the cave; Michal did not technically enter the cave, she just entered this area. There are no photos of the Herodian chamber either. --User talk:FDuffy 19:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted edit

Hi. I recently changed a passage that could be contested to reflect a more neutral stance and it was reverted. Let's reach a compromise on this?

The Cave of the Patriarchs is considered to be the spiritual center of the ancient city of Hebron in [the Judean part of what is collectivelly known by the world as the West Bank.] It is called in Hebrew Me-arat Hamachpelah (מערת המכפלה): "The Cave of the 'double' caves or tombs", because (according to Jewish tradition) its hidden twin caves are considered to be the burial place of four "pairs" of important Biblical couples: (1) Adam and Eve; (2) Abraham and Sarah; (3) Isaac and Rebekah; (4) Jacob and Leah.

The parts placed in square brackets are what I believe is pro-Israel POV...

suggested edit:

The Cave of the Patriarchs is considered to be the spiritual center of the ancient city of Hebron in the West Bank. It is called in Hebrew Me-arat Hamachpelah (מערת המכפלה): "The Cave of the 'double' caves or tombs", because (according to Jewish tradition) its hidden twin caves are considered to be the burial place of four "pairs" of important Biblical couples: (1) Adam and Eve; (2) Abraham and Sarah; (3) Isaac and Rebekah; (4) Jacob and Leah.

Sorry I didn't do this before E:

This is an article about a place holy to Judaism. It is located in ancient Judea. Using the term "West Bank" robs it of its spiritual context. The place where it is is known to Jews as Judea and to the world as the west bank; there is nothing pov about it.

Guy Montag 08:10, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The Cave of the Patriarchs is holy to many religions, not just the Jewish one. If there is to be a spiritual context to the article, then it should encompass all beliefs equally - it is my opinion that using the term Judean to describe a multi-religious and multi-cultural area is simply unbalanced.--FarQPwnsJoo 12:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Historically, it is a Jewish religious site that happens to be important to other religions. I am not going to let you erase that with multi-cultural whitewashing.

Guy Montag 18:22, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

It's not "whitewashing", what is there now is quite Jewish-POV and since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a vehicle for the opinions of one group, it should seriously be changed... --FarQPwnsJoo 22:58, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I dont understand your point. It's not opinion, its fact. This is a historically Jewish religious site, stating so is not pov, its historical fact. If you do not understand the difference between fact and opinion, than we shouldn't be having this discussion. By trying to "multiculturalize" it you are bieng historically innacurate. All it says is that it is in the Judean part of what is known as the west bank by the world. All of this is historically correct. Why? Because it does lie in historical Judea, and the rest of the world does know it as the west bank. Basic knowledge of the Bible and ancient Jewish history confirms this. You're the only one who seems to be having this problem, a problem that I solved through discussion with Arab posters months ago.

Guy Montag 04:53, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The removal of the Arabic name of this place is pure POV. Editors Jayjg and Guy Montag provide no reason for its removal.Yuber^(talk) 20:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I certainly did; I restored the pre-edit war version. I would be an extremely helpful practice for you, Yuber, if you tried to work things through in Talk: first, rather than simply revert warring every article you come across, quite often as your first edit. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You have still not explained to me why the Arabic place name was removed.Yuber^(talk) 21:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I did, both above, and in the edit summary; was there something you didn't understand about them? Also, did you read the edit summary regarding the Cave of the Patriarchs and the Mosque not being identical? In fact, they are not, and this article is about the Cave of the Patriarchs. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:07, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] " in the Judean part of what is collectivelly known by the world as the West Bank."

Guy, I think the phrase "in the Judean part of what is collectivelly known by the world as the West Bank" really is superfluous, and just promotes a Zionist POV. I'd take it out, but I'm getting tired of reverting this article today. Would you mind taking it back out again? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:11, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I guess I could. I did not want to include as much a Zionist POV as the fact that Hebron is in Ancient Judea. If you click the link, you will see that well it basically says that the Cave is in ancient Judea. I wanted a way to historically incorporate that into the text. It is historically important to Jews around the world, so I do not think glossing over this fact is NPOV in itself. I will see how I can NPOV it without erasing the Judea note.

Guy Montag 23:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you should just take the whole thing out; it doesn't really add to the specific article, and it just appears to be pushing a POV. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What do you think of the changes I made?

Guy Montag 06:11, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's in the southwest of the West Bank, not the westernmost part. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:56, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it's nowhere near the West Bank. It's 15 miles west of the middle of Yam haMelach, approximately 20 miles south of the southern terminus of the Yarden. It's not on any bank, and certainly not on the west bank of the Yarden. Tomer ^TALK July 4, 2005 20:36 (UTC)

[edit] Segragation?

I want to do the Mosque of Ibrahim as seperate from this, because every single thing about this article reflects a jewish POV, not a neutral one. --Irishpunktom\^talk 19:38, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Um, even the stuff about the Ibrahami mosque "reflects a jewish POV"? And you figure creating a Muslim POV article fork will solve that? Why not just add more info about the mosque here? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caption of the lead picture

I am confused about whether the Cave and the Mosque are separate or the same. A couple of months ago, the last time I worked on this article, the caption of the main picture read: "The facade and minarets of the Ibrahimi Mosque. The Cave of the Patriarchs is contained inside the building." Now it reads: "The facade and minarets of the place Jews refer to as the Cave of the Patriarchs and Muslims refer to as the Ibrahimi Mosque." Do Jews consider the minarets and other structures built by the Muslims as part of the Cave of the Patriarchs? I was under the impression that the Jewish holy sight was the actual geological cave and the tombs contained therein, which are beneath the mosque, a separate object from the cave. Is that inaccurate? If the Cave and the Muslim facade buildings are separate, ought we not revert to the previous caption that says that the cave lies beneath the mosque? In April I put in a Talk section "How about a picture of the cave?" asking if there were any pictures available of the actual cave or the tombs, so we could have a picture of both, but no one responded. --AladdinSE 21:51, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Only the Herodian building and the Cave are regarded as one structure. Now that it is a mosque, the Cave is separate from it.

Guy Montag 00:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Do you know if there any available pictures of the tombs, cave, or Herodian structures? I wonder why there were no google hits for those. It would be wonderful to have those kinds of pictures alongside the Mosque facade. --AladdinSE 05:22, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Judaism considers the site the second most sacred site"

Sorry to make a fuss, I did grow up in a staunchly secular family, but I know a thing or two about Judaism, and this is the first I've heard there's a "second holiest" place in Judaism. I know of the three places purchased by the ancestors, I know of the four holy cities, but I never knew the Cave was second holiest. While those articles quoted, as well as the Jewish Virtual Library, say it is so, I haven't been able to confirm it from any Hebrew-language source. I've consulted a few books and Google and haven't seen this fact mentioned in any of them. Am I being silly and this is common knowledge?--Doron 22:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

This is pretty common knowledge, as far as I can tell.Guy Montag 00:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I've provided two links which state as much - will that do? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Why is it second holiest if it is the most antique? 204.52.215.107 06:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the distinction ought to be given to Tel Rumeida, although the current use of said hill is residental and, unfortunately, military/ militant. 204.52.215.107 06:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Holiness and age need not correlate. Tewfik^Talk 03:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations and Unreferenced

You'll notice I've added the "unreferenced" tag to this article. Much of it is extremely PoV and unsubstantiated, especially the "Current Situation" section. Whoever wrote this or has more extensive knowledge on the topic should please clean it up. -- pm_shef 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cave of the Patriarchs massacre

Why don't we just link to the related article? Is it really necessary to added original researched POV material about the massacre to THIS article? Goldstein NEVER gave a reason to ANYBODY for what he did from what I can tell. Now, there seems to be a lot of speculation and theories about why he did what he did. That is interesting but not encyclopediac it seems. Also, how is that being rude? I admitt that I am no expert but I am becoming one based on the ongoing edit war over this. Anyways, --Tom 18:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I simply added a little bit more background and linked to the main article. The information is from the commission who investigated the incident, so it cannot be anymore pov than a historical fact. If you have conflicting information, or that this information is false, then list it here and when I see it, we can either delete the information or keep it, but it is not going to be based on your hunch or your own theories. Guy Montag 17:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Commission made it clear that Goldstein never gave ANYONE, including his wife, a reason for what he did. Theories about WHY he did what he did are just that and do not belong here. They are here say at best and not encyclodediatic.--Tom 21:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I would love to see some sources regarding that. The second I see that he kept his mouth shut or gave no indication of his motives, I will erase the information and speak of it no more. So far I see information another user cited pointing to his motive and no information that you cited. Guy Montag 23:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the Commission report? It states that NOBODY was aware of what he was going to do. He acted independtly. Therefore, people can only SPECULATE about why he did what he did. Please QUOTE directly from it(the report) where it shows his SPECIFIC motive or EVEN THEORY. The more plausible motive, and the one mentioned before all this theory debate started was that Goldstein did what he did to disrupt the on going peace process. This to however, is SPECULATION. The report talks of suspected planned attacks of Jews by Arabs but says nothing specifically about when it was to take place. Arabs are ALWAYS planning to kill Jews, whats new there? Anyways....--Tom 00:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough :) Guy Montag 03:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom: In your reply to Guy Montag, you raised some good points and asked some valid questions. I shall now try and reply to these points and questions.

You write: “The report talks of suspected planned attacks of Jews by Arabs but says nothing specifically about when it was to take place. Arabs are ALWAYS planning to kill Jews, whats new there? Anyways....”

In fact there is evidence that this Arab attack would take place on Purim morning in the Cave of Machpelah:

1) One of the IDF officers, Lieutenant Yitzchak Hamudot, in his testimony under oath to the Shamgar Commission said that all the warnings, orders and explanations which were circulated in the days up to Purim, referred to a planned attack on the Jews during their prayer service in the Cave of Machpelah at half past seven on the morning of Purim. [Shamgar Commission: Minutes p.927]

2) Two newspaper reporters, Yigal Amitai and Yitzchak Kainan, for the daily “Yom Layom” wrote that they had received information from senior officials in the intelligence service “Shabak” that the Hamas had planned a massive attack on the Jews in the Cave of Machpelah on the morning of Purim. [Yom Layom 10 April 1994 p.1]

3) Ruthie Moshe gave evidence under oath in a court case that when she told a Hebron Arab worker (who at the time was working in her house), that she was going to be in the CAVE OF MACHPELAH on PURIM, he replied "Don't go to the Cave of Machpelah. Go to Kiryat Arba. It is safer." [Baruch Ha-Gever trial, Jerusalem Magistrates Court, 1997, Minutes p.57]

4) Warnings were given to the Israeli guards at the Cave of Machpelah that on the days immediately before Purim, the Arabs might try and smuggle explosives into that place.[Shamgar Commission: Report p.28; Minutes pp.518-19]

5) Almost all the 800 Arabs (an unprecedented number!) that Purim morning entered the Cave of Machpelah by the East Gate where they knew that the metal detector [which would detect smuggled weapons] was broken, although there was nothing to stop them from going through the Main Gate. They had even broken the East Gate’s metal detector even more on the PREVIOUS NIGHT [Shamgar Commission: Report p.15; Minutes pp.203 bet-gimmel] This number of Arabs included 300 women and they knew that the regulations forbade the searching of women, even by women soldiers. Also remember that Moslem women wear very long dresses. [Shamgar Commission: Report p.18; Minutes p.203 gimmel]

6) There were various reports of finding weapons in the Cave of Machpelah in the Hall where the Arabs had been. (A check showed that they did not belong to Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the soldiers or Jews then present in the Cave of Machpelah.)[Shamgar Commission: Report pp.46, 59-60, 223; Exhibits 1137(1), 1137(52)]

7) The Arabs had distributed a leaflet in Hebron saying that on Purim or the day after - the stress being on Purim - an Arab terrorist attack would take place in Hebron. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibits, Reports from Logs of Operation Rooms of 2 separate Israeli Army units] The existence of this leaflet was also reported in the Shamgar Report. [Shamgar Commission: Report pp.79, 223] (This leaflet stated the date although not the place)

You wrote: “Have you read the Commission report? It states that NOBODY was aware of what he was going to do. He acted independtly. Therefore, people can only SPECULATE about why he did what he did. Please QUOTE directly from it (the report) where it shows his SPECIFIC motive or EVEN THEORY.”

1) A fair amount of evidence at the proceedings of the Shamgar Commission was taken behind closed doors and many of the Exhibits are still closed to the public. However we do know that in addition to the published Shamgar Report, there is a SECRET SUPPLEMENT. This fact we know from the Mayor of the Hebron Jewish Municipal Council,Avraham Ben-Yoseph. In his position, he visits many army and civilian offices, and he saw both in the office of Regional IDF Commander and in the office of the IDF Area Commanding General, the OUTSIDE of this secret supplement. Obviously he could not look inside it! According to hearsay reports of its contents, it states that Baruch Goldstein’s act was a pre-emptive strike to prevent a massacre of Jews. I immediately admit that this is hearsay, but no more so that the statement: “When Israel captured the area during the 1967 Six Day War, it is said that then Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan was given the keys and was supposedly shown the actual secret hidden passageways that lead to the below-ground tombs” which appears in this Wikipedia “Cave of the Patriarchs” article!

2) It is true that Baruch Goldstein told nobody of his intentions for that Purim. It would seem to me that there are two good reasons for this, a) Three days before Purim, a meeting was called at a few hours' notice by Major General Shaul Mofaz, Commander of the Judea and Samaria Division, for the Mayor and Councillors of Kiryat Arba. At this meeting, General Mofaz informed them that a terrorist organisation was planning to execute a serious attack during the coming days. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibits 217 aleph p.6, 678] Dr. Goldstein was a member of a medical team that would have been called out if such an attack had taken place. He would thus have been given ADVANCE warning by the authorities of the likelihood of such an attack, so that the necessary preparations could be made to meet such an emergency. Following this meeting with Colonel Mofaz, Dr. Goldstein was informed of these warnings in order to make the necessary preparations. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibits 207 p.1, 208 p.1, 217 aleph pp.4-5; signed statement by Kiryat Arba Councillor Bella Gonen] After Dr. Goldstein heard about the meeting with General Mofaz, he went to the Mayor of the Hebron Jewish Municipal Council. Avraham Ben-Yoseph and said in a voice full of emotion and on the verge of tears “Will you allow this to happen? Why not take action to avoid this catastrophe.” It is said that “walls have ears” and had there been the slightest knowledge of Goldstein’s intentions, he would very likely have ended up in the Israeli infamous “administrative detention” and the massacre of Jews might then of gone on as planned. [The question which immediately comes to mind is why wasn’t the Government of Israel going to take measures to prevent such a massacre. Here of course one comes on to speculation and only after secret Government records have been opened 50 -100 years after the event, will we know the true answer. Meanwhile we can only guess. At that period the very left wing Government of Israel had just recognised the PLO and was negotiating the handover to them of cities and areas populated by Arabs. One of these cities was Hebron. But in the centre of Hebron was Jewish settlement and this could torpedo any agreement. In 1929, in the Arab pogrom on the Jews of Hebron, nearly 70 Jews were massacred and this resulted in the removal of the entire Hebron Jewish community from the city. Likewise a similar massacre against the Jews in Hebron in 1994 could have produced similar results. I fully admit this is only a theory. However, we do know that Yitzchak Rabin who was then Prime Minister and Minister of Defense (and thus was in possession of the most highly classified material) was opposed to the setting up of a Commission to investigate this Purim incident, and only after the members of his Cabinet insisted did Rabin agree. [Ma’ariv, mussaf Pesach. 25 March 1994, p.2] Also, in its Report, the Shamgar Commission was very critical of the lack of protection given by the Israeli Government to the Jewish settlers in these areas [Shamgar Commission: Report pp.152, 167, 168]] b) the second reason for Goldstein not telling anyone of his intentions could well be that this would make them accessory before the fact and by them not reporting this to the authorities, could land them a jail sentence. This occurred with Margalit Har-Shefi who spent 9 months in jail for not informing the authorities of Yigal Amir’s intentions. [ Margalit Har-Shefi v. State of Israel, Israel Supreme Court I.P. 3417/99. 21 February 2001]

Tom: please let me have your comments on the above.

Simonschaim 14:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Simon, I have read the report that is linked from Wikipedia and NEVER saw evidence that there was specific evidence of a planned aatack for the morning in question. I'll be honest that I am very busy right now and can't do the research this deserves. Can you provide DETAILED links with the evidence you suggest? Is there a link to the FULL report in ENGLISH?? Thanks....--Tom 14:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom

Please see my message to you under the Talk page of "Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre"

Simonschaim 09:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status

I removed this line: "The tombs of Abraham and Sarah are synagogues, whereas the tomb of Isaac and Rebekah is a mosque." Not true. The tombs (or cenotaphs) of Abraham and Sarah are between the mosque and the synagogue, with grates that allow them to be viewed from either section. Ericstoltz 21:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)