Talk:Celebration, Florida

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Contents 1 CC&Rs 2 Photos 3 Added Images 4 Opening Paragraph

[edit] CC&Rs

I removed some language which I thought sensationalist about the CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions) associated with Celebration, as I don't think it's at all material to Celebration.

Comparison of Census/American Community Survey numbers on housing construction and these estimates of [community association governed housing] show that a consistent 30-50% of new houses built since the 1970s have community associations attached, with a total population today of nearly 55 million Americans. Many subdivisions without community associations still have CC&Rs, but in the absence of an HOA there is no enforcement authority. Attached housing is rarely fee-simple, and accounts for nearly half of housing starts in America; single family houses in planned communities with common areas (e.g., recreational amenities or private streets) account for additional millions of new CC&R-governed houses. Some surveys relate that 80% of residents of these communities have never read their CC&Rs.

Homeowners' associations are indeed ubiquitous in many of the nation's fastest-growing cities, particularly in the Sunbelt and even more in Florida and California. A search of new homes for sale in Kissimmee County in the Orlando Sentinel shows that every single one is in a planned community.

Pretty much any development built in the Sunbelt since the 1980s has restricted house colors, and almost all urban historic districts (like the one I live in) do the same. This has NOTHING to do with the architectural style, or with New Urbanism, or even with Celebration: Modernist high-rise condos in New York City and schlocky golf-course retirement villas in Phoenix alike come with a thick book of CC&Rs, regulating everything from curtain colors and the age of permanent residents to the the number and type of dogs permissible and the placement of outdoor grills or signs. Some CC&Rs, notably the racially restrictive covenants that ensured segregation in the urban North and West, have been ruled unconstitutional by federal courts, but otherwise they are a legal part of everyday American life. Paytonc 01:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• There is quite a difference in saying that CC&R's are "ubiquitous in all suburban development" and saying that they are common in subdivisions with areas held in common or in urban historic districts. A large number of suburban developments have neither common areas nor "thick book of CC&Rs". Where is your 95% figure from? Of the six home sales I've been involved in here, all in suburban subdivisions developed since 1910, exactly zero have had restrictive design covenents. Perhaps you are confusing CC&R's with municipal zoning authority? While it may be considered "inflammatory" to say that buyers "must sign" these restrictions, it is patently factual while your arguments for removing the language are unreferenced and, from my experience, spurious. If I'm just completely out of touch, at least have the courtesy to reference an authoritative source. --Dystopos 00:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Okay, the 95% was made up. Perhaps I've just always lived in cities where HOAs are indeed ubiquitous -- Raleigh, LA, Boston, and Chicago, where most new housing is built either in planned communities or is in condominium form. Re-read the edited comment, please, and the edited article: all of that is factually correct, and puts Celebration into better perspective. I still do not think that this is at all material to Celebration: the new home construction market in places like Orlando is dominated by golf-course planned communities like Celebration, complete with CC&Rs that regulate house paint, yet critics want to pin Disney or New Urbanism as being the root of these. (For what it's worth, most Florida zoning laws demand that stormwater retention ponds be maintained by HOAs, not by municipalities.) Also, I am not confused about zoning vs. CC&Rs; I'm an urban planning researcher. Oh, and what's this "authoritative source" you mention? Paytonc 01:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Pretty much anything published and verifiable... not "made up" would be authoritative enough. In the end, our goal is to put Celebration into a factual and neutral perspective, not a better or worse one. I am not of the "Blame Disney and the CNU for everything bad" camp. I took more exception to the claim in your edit summary than to the content of the article. We're probably more on the same page than it seems. Let's just agree to be fair to the subject. --Dystopos 01:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Bobak: those are great photos! Winter light can be quite a challenge. Paytonc 19:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC) edited Paytonc 01:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Images

I visited on a partly cloudy day, so the images aren't the best, but I hope these help illustrate the city a little. I wish I'd taken more of the wide variety of home styles (not just designs) in the city. Bobak 00:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Paragraph

I modified the opening paragraph to be more accurate and narative.

Disney Cast members do not receive discounts in Celebration restaurants because there is any relationship between the town and the company. It is for the same reasons they get them at the nearby Red Lobster, Chevy's, Ale House, Cold Stone, IHOP, etc. They are arrangements from the business who wants to encourage the large number of employees to patronage their location. Having worked for Disney and lived in Celebration I can state this is easily verifyable by asking the restaurant managers. Also none of the restaurants are operated by Disney. Celebration residents do (or did) get a discount at the area Chick-Fil-A once a week, and at the golf course restaurant.

I do not believe Disney is on the CROA at all now that the population has reached over 9000, but since I have not verified that I did not add that to the edit. Celebration is however now considering a proposal to incorporate.

Other information that perhaps should get mentioned (but didn't)...

With the Florida housing boom, there has been a large conversion of rental/appartment facilities in Celebration into condos. Businesses bought up all the original rental facilities, including Mirasol, Gables North, and the downtown complexes, and resold them as condos. Rentals still exist, but because there are individual owners renting their unit out or garage apartments.

They have also started to build multi-story condos on land originally designated as parking or unintended for building. This has created a large parking shortage in downtown, especially during events like the pie festival. It has also changed the look of the downtown area. The lack of parking also creates a hardship for tourists visiting the area shops and restaurants, and since several shops cater to tourists more than residents, this will eventually have a visible impact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kgbarrett (talk • contribs).