Talk:Celebrity appearances in Doctor Who

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Doctor Who Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Doctor Who, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Doctor Who and its spin-offs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

I have a bad feeling about this article. --Tim Pope 21:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I smell a VfD on the offing, too. --khaosworks 22:47, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Just keep editing out the fluff and checking the links. GraemeLeggett 10:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Or to keep it simple, turn it on its head and list episode first then actors of note. GraemeLeggett 11:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Seems a bit odd to list people who made their first TV appearance in Doctor Who and then became famous later as "celebrity appererances" (Martin Clunes) Morwen - Talk 12:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. This definitely needs some cleanup - not least, an introductory paragraph, and ideally something more than just a list. Were these "celebrity appearances" or just well-known actors who happened to get a part? Just how famous or well-known were they at the time of their appearance? There's a huge difference between Martin Clunes, Simon Callow and Andrew Marr, for example. OpenToppedBus - My Talk 15:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Very true, we need to eliminate from this list those actors "doing a job" which includes Madoc, and probably every entry before Tom Bakers days, and retain just the true celeb appearances like Cleese, and the noteworthy actors showing up. GraemeLeggett 11:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there is a poor categorisation here, and the data that was there was very incomplete - Beryl Reid, Bernard Bresslaw, Nerys Hughes are definite celebrities who were missing. I've taken the liberty of adding a stack more people - either clear celebrities or those who were "Actors in Doctor Who Before They Were Famous". Perhaps the aggregate data could be then split between the categories? I think that with regard to Philip Madoc, Julian Glover, Nigel Stock, Martin Jarvis, Maurice Denham, Mary Morris, Richard Todd, James Fox, Derek Jacobi etc a case could be made for a third category - but I'm unsure what to suggets for a title - "Well known actors who have appeared in Doctor Who". Litefoot 12.35, 24 July 2005

I don't see how this page could ever work. What's the definition of "celebrity"? Is is a famous actor, or is it someone famous for doing something else, or what? If you count just actors who were internationally famous before they appeared on the show, I think the list could be whittled down to maybe half a dozen names (Cleese, Bron, Blessed, and the Beatles (if you want to be generous)). A cult figure like Ken Dodd, while beloved by fans, can hardly be considered a celebrity, as he's barely known outside the UK. I strongly suggest this list be severely pruned down.Konczewski 13:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And just to beat a dead horse, maybe we should use the Wikipedia definition of celebrity to decide who goes here.Konczewski 13:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You're not necessarily wrong, but I'd maintain that there's a difference between "international celebrity" and "celebrity". The Wikipedia page celebrity says it's "a person who is widely recognized (famous) in a society and commands a high degree of public and media attention." An argument could be made for nearly all the people listed here that they're widely recognized in British society, even if they're not widely known outside the UK. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about national vs international celebs, but since Wikipedia is itself an international resource, it would make sense to err on the global side. Also, I'm still personally thinking that a celeb is someone that talked about in the entertainment press (like a Julia Roberts or a David Beckham), rather than someone who has appeared in TV and/or film. By the later definition, every single person who's appeared on Doctor Who is a celeb.

Perhaps the only definition that would keep this list managable would be listing those who are primarily celebs outside the acting field. This would probably just leave the Beatles, though.Konczewski 13:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. As it stands, except for the Beatles, it is a list of actors who made casual appearances in Doctor Who and who had an actual acting career. You could do the same with any show, and list all the actors who have something else on their resume besides that show. Big deal. So what. If you want that information, go to imdb. This is just a random list and ought to be deleted. --Bolognaking 22:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Splitting 2 Malcolm Hebden 3 The charity specials? 4 Voices & links 5 Duplicate linking; is it bad within lists? 6 Italics 7 List order

[edit] Splitting

My idea split list into

• Those who were well-known/respected actors when they appeared on Doctor Who - that period roughly starts around the 4th Doctor (and reached barrel-scraping proportions in Bad Wolf -IMHO)
• Those who became well known after appearing on Doctor who - a much smaller list.
• Those who appeared several times through out the shows history - possibly without ever becoming well-known.

GraemeLeggett 15:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Re your suggested splits - am in total agreement on second one; but surely the first one is too broad - celebrities (Ken Dodd, John Cleese, Trinny and Susannah) are a different breed from established actors. I'd also be careful about saying that the fame bit only started with Tom Baker - Ingrid Pitt, Bernard Bresslaw and Marius Goring are strong early examples of actors with fame appearing in the programme. Re. the regular actors - surely they just fall into the "Doctor Who Actors" category and shouldn't be seen as celebrities/famous actors? Litefoot 21.18, 24 July 2005

Unforntately it is a bit of a judgement issue. I agree that there are some well knowns pre D4, just not so many as D4 and later.

Ok, so let's avoid being too prescriptive. What about NOT breaking up the page into other pages but rather re-ordering it into the smaller categories. A case could be made for "Doctor Who Actors Who featured in Soap Operas" too - avoiding the actor/celebrity confusion. Who would need to agree to such a big structural change before it can go ahead? Bit new to this game, so unsure what happens next.Litefoot 14.30, 25 July 2005

Definitely stick as a single page! Just fiddle around with the text until you like what you see. GraemeLeggett 14:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Don't know if anyone needs to agree to it, but as the guy who had the idea for this page originally, I have no problem with it. Essexmutant 14:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Malcolm Hebden

I notice Malcolm Hebden (Norris Cole in Coronation Street) has been added to the list, although I cannot find a record of his appearance on IMDB. I have not personally seen The Seeds of Doom to verify if he's in it or not. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

The BBC website does not list him on the cast list (see The Seeds of Doom, external link). --khaosworks 12:16, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The charity specials?

I haven't just gone in and added 'em, in case the Project has Rules I'm Unaware Of about what to include, but it would seem to me that the celeb Doctors in Curse of Fatal Death deserve a place in the "Other Productions/As the Doctor" section. Hugh Grant in particular is Really Very Famous Indeed. The Eastenders cast in Dimensions in Time I'm not nearly so sure about, but perhapss they ought to be there too.

I presume they're all entitled to be there. Rowan Atkinson and the rest of the Doctors all seem suitable to me - the same applies for Julia Sawalha and Jonathan Pryce. A list of the Eastenders actors who were in Dimensions In Time can be found at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0261655/fullcredits - I'm sure Ross Kemp, Mike Reid and Steve McFadden are all suitable, perhaps the rest as well.

It's all right as long as it's distinguished from the others with a subheader "Charity specials" under "Other Productions". --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 22:21, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I've added them all, splitting out those that played the Doctor and the Eastenders cast. --Essexmutant 11:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Voices & links

As this is a list of appearances, should we specify where guest actors have provided voices only (Anne Robinson, Zoe Wanamaker, Davina McCall, etc.)?

Also, the rule about only linking a name once seems to have been over-stringently applied so, for example, Jean Marsh isn't linked to her article for her Battlefield appearance, but her previous appearance is not only not on the screen but right at the top of the list. Would it be better for this article to link names throughout regardless of the number of appearances? --Whouk (talk) 23:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate linking; is it bad within lists?

Just had my added links reverted, and realised why; they'd (probably, haven't check) been linked previously. My mistake, and I should have thought of this beforehand.

However, whilst this adheres to the general Wikipedia rules (which are good for avoiding excessive linkification), is it really beneficial here? Since this is a list, people will not necessarily be reading it from the start, and will have to check to see if there is a link earlier on. (Even if there is, they still have to search for it). Fourohfour 15:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree - see my comment just above. --Whouk (talk) 14:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah — I think I'll link anything that isn't linked in the same section, for the aid of readers. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italics

The article might look aesthetically pleasing - but shouldn't we be italicising all of those TV/film titles, for consistency's sake? Martpol 18:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we should. I'll bite the bullet and do it, and while I'm at it I'll add links, as suggested above. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List order

Which is more useful: an out-and-out alphabetical list, a list arranged chronologically by Doctor Who appearance, or the current hybrid? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say alphabetical by appearance, as then we could stick to one entry per person. —Whouk (talk) 19:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

By "alphabetical by appearance", I take it you mean one alphabetical list for the television series, another for Big Finish and so forth? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I should just have said "alphetical". By appearance I meant "a celebrity appearance" and ended up being very ambiguous, sorry. Alphabetical by name, full stop. Although now that you've raised it, having a separate section for Big Finish etc. might be an idea, as it's less notable than being in the TV series (IMHO). —Whouk (talk) 22:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)