Talk:Chador
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Could we get a less mime-like image perhaps? Sherurcij 06:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there some reason the word Shador redirects here? Is that a common misspelling of this garment or something? I had no idea that my intarweb name had any meaning whatsoever. Shador5529 15:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- and a long overcoat (jilbab or manteau) became compulsory for total coverage.
The jilbab is worn over the chador? AxelBoldt 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] OK, fixed article
No, so far as I know it's either chador or manteau, but not both. Jilbab is associated with Sunni Salafis, not Shi'a. Someone who was confused wrote that.
I added some material about traditional and modern dress for which I could give no references. I should look them up, and perhaps I'll have time later. I don't have any doubt that what I added is true, but it does need refs. Pictures would also be good. For the traditional costume, I can probably find some old Victorian engravings which would be public domain now. Modern pictures ... well, perhaps some Iranians could help. Zora 05:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
- Chador and manteau are entirely separate things. Women who wear chador do not wear manteau underneath. Chador is worn over regular (supposed to be "modest") clothes. Manteau is for women who don't wear chador. The Chador is also pre-Islamic.
- Here is a interesting article about chador: http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0011028.html According to this article it is also worn by some Hindus. Here is another one from BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/010525_iran.shtml
- This article could use an expert. Khorshid 09:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what I wrote should make it clear that some women wear chador and some women wear scarf and manteau. Perhaps you read that too quickly?
As for the claim that only mullahs and religious people objected to the Pahlavi decree -- I don't think that's right. I've read several places that women who were used to the traditional garment were distressed by having to appear improperly clothed in public. I'm not defending the dang chador -- it must be hot as anything -- but I also think that women should be able to wear what they want, whether it's chadors or hot pants.
- From what I read was mostly mullahs who made alot of noise. I can see "some" rural and peasant women complaining, but mullahs were definitely the spotlight of the complaints, like when they opposed voting rights for women and letting women into military and police. Chador is actually much cooler than typical manteau especially if light clothes are worn underneath, though for last ten-fifteen years very cool and light (and short) manteaus are allowed and popular. Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hindu women do NOT wear chadors. They cover their heads in temples and in the presence of elders, and they do so with the pallu of their sari, or with the dupatta of their salwar kameez. Some Muslim women in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India burqas, which are not at all the same thing as chadors. Entirely different cut. Your source is completely wrong in the assertions re Hindu women.
As for the statement that chadors and manteaus are pre-Islamic -- that's also unsubstantiated. We know that the upper-class Achaemenids and Sassanids secluded their women, and I've found a picture of a woman with a veil wound tightly around her face. But no chadors.
- Well the source seems legitimate. I have read before that chador is traditional Persian clothing from long before Muslim invasion, like the history of mullahs clothes which dates back to around Sasanian times. Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've found an 1885 picture of a woman in a chador, and some quotes from Plutarch and El-Guindi. More can be added to the article. Zora 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
- Plutarch was from pre-Islamic times yes? Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but he describes women being carried in curtained carriages, not chadors. The Achaemenid picture I found, in Tilke, also shows a scarf rather than a chador. Too bad I can't scan and upload that picture, but copyright ...
If you can come up with some actual pictures or quotes of a pre-Islamic chador (specifically, a long semi-circular veil held closed in front -- not just any veil) then I'll of course change my mind. There's one book on the history of Middle Eastern costume I'd like to consult, but it's out of print, rare, and expensive. Not too many resources on ancient Persian women's clothing. Zora 12:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for your good work on the article but I think there a couple of misconceptions, Zora. 1) The picture is a problem because it is not a chador, but a Qajar veil of Turcoman origin. For a period of time they imposed it on women in Tehran and maybe some other places. I'm not sure and I dont have a source. But also the picture is not accurate display of Qajar veil. 2) Chador (and this is important) does not have to be held closed in front. Chador is often left open over headscarf. You must have seen this before. When Shia women pray or women who typically wear chador are in the home (with guests) they leave the chador open. There are a few different ways to wear chador. Holding the black chador closed in front like we see on TV is not the traditional way. It is a complex subject. For a bit of humor, women who wear this style of wearing black chador (held closed tightly) is sometimes mockingly called "moosh-mordeh" (scared like a mouse). I think this style was brought by Khomeini, maybe inspired by the Qajar veil? Khorshid 02:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More work on article
Korshid, what you say sounds reasonable. In such a large country as Iran, there must be (and must have been) many different styles of hijab. The problem is finding reliable sources of information. I think I've done what I can in English! There are probably more sources in Persian. What we need is a better history of Iranian women's clothing, of hijab, and PICTURES, more pictures. Old ones and new ones. Can you work on this? Do you know anyone who can? Zora 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Issue of Manteau under Chador
Although the statement is true at home women do typically ware the chador over the regular modest cloths when they have guests over in public outings and in the workplace women who do ware the chadore typically ware a Manteau underneath.
This is the common practice of the Islamic Republic of Iran and many picturial examples can be found on the net.
[edit] Removal of old picture, Plutarch quote
While it's fine to have a more modern picture of a chador, it wasn't necessary to remove the older one. I moved the older picture to the history section.
I also restored the quote from Plutarch. One editor took extreme umbrage at Plutarch's description of the Achaemenids as barbarous -- thereby showing a scanty knowledge of classical history and the English language. The Greeks, like many other groups, considered all non-Greeks to be uncivilized -- they didn't speak properly, in Greek, but spoke languages that sounded like "bar bar" to the supercilious Greeks. Hence "barbarians." The term "barbarian" was adopted by the Romans and from Latin, made its way into English. The Greeks, of course, would have considered the English just another kind of barbarian. The meaning has changed over time. It has always been pejorative, but now it is different sort of pejorative.
We have the quote from Plutarch because, strange as it may seem, much of what we know about the Achaemenids is from Greek sources. Very very few Achaemenid texts have survived. The Greeks, however, having fought and eventually destroyed the Achaemenids, were intensely interested in them, and much of their writing has survived. Throwing out evidence because you don't like the wording used by a Greek historian of 2000 years ago is bizarre. It is very clear that this is Plutarch's statement, and not WP's belief that the Achaemenids were barbarians. It is very relevant to the topic, which is the segregation of the women of the anderun behind walls or veils. Zora 06:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Personally I hate that picture. :) Its an illustration and a wrong showing of Qajar style veil. Its like a bizarre caricature of the real thing. I suggest to remove as soon as a true photo can be found because in a way this is POV. Khorshid 09:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can scan some old photos from one of my history books (they're old enough to be public domain) but they're very fuzzy, very bad quality. Zora 09:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest we wait until we can find fair quality photos. :) I tried to find a source for the history showing differences between styles but so far I havent seen anything. There is tho a history preservation website from the Iranian government that has a ton of photos so if I can find that link there is a good chance we can get some good public domain images there. The last time I saw it it was mostly just pictures of Shah and ppl from his government so I dont know if they have anything older. Khorshid 09:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of this picture? Zora 10:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I have no objections but your right. Its not too clear. BTW is the Qajar chador really chador or is more proper as simply "veil"? The book calls it a chador? Khorshid 23:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, book calls it a chador. The picture is from the time of Nasr-ed-din -- those are court ladies on horseback. The pictures in the book are mostly family photos from the court, and in the pictures women are wearing headscarves but no chador. That's in the house. Outside the house nothing shows but the eyes. The book I have, Crowning Anguish, credits the pictures to Dust 'Ali Khan Mo'ayyer al-Mamalek, Yad-dashtha-'i az zendagi-ye khosusi-e Naser al-Din Shah, Tehran, 1983, so if you can find that book, it may have more pictures.
