Talk:Characters of Final Fantasy VIII/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Character Pages 2 Edea 3 Irvine/creation rumour 4 Fujin/Raijin last name 5 This article has too much game detail 6 Cid Kramer 7 Rinoa/Ultimecia speculation 8 Your recent edits 9 Blood types

[edit] Character Pages

Could someone edit the edea, kiros and ward pages for me as im new to editing the pages. Thanks!!!

See Cid Kramer. 私はBluerfnです 10:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edea

I saw this disambig page: Edea and was going to redirect it here. But there seems to be no information on her. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 18:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks like it was there after all. I'm not quite sure how I missed that. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irvine/creation rumour

The article mentions: "It has been rumored that Irvine is named after Irvine, CA. Much of Final Fantasy VIII was created by "Square L.A.", a branch of Squaresoft located Costa Mesa, CA from 1996 to 2001. Irvine is a neighboring city to Costa Mesa."

Is there any evidence for any of this? I wasn't aware that anything other than FMV sequences were developed outside of Japan; if so, did Irvine have a different name in the Japanese version? I haven't heard so. If there's no disagreement, I'll chop this paragraph. Gamemaker 14:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

That information was divulged many years ago, shortly before or perhaps after FFVIII's release in Japan. As I recall, both Irvine and Laguna were said to be named after towns that were near Square LA's offices. Certain key members of Square Japan were often at Square LA back then not just to work on FFVIII's FMV, but also to work on Parasite Eve and more importantly to begin the project which eventually became The Spirits Within. I don't remember exactly where the info was given, but I do recall that it was a reliable source at the time. Possibly mentioned in passing during an interview in Famitsu Wave. I won't insist that it be reverted back into the article, but more and more I'm finding it's a real shame that a lot of valid information is constantly being deleted simply because there's no URL or book that can serve as a convenient source. That, and also people assuming that just because they haven't heard something before, it must not be true. Druff 02:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

It is a shame, but there is an important reason. If we can't source it, we can't say for certain it's true. Although it's often not the case, everything on wikipeda should be sourced. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 20:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

It was clearly marked as a rumor in the article. That should be enough. Druff 01:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fujin/Raijin last name

I read somewhere that Fujin and Raijin's last name is Kazeno. Can anyone verify this?

I'm afraid this is based from fanfiction. You would done better to refer to the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania instead. By the way Kazeno is japanese for "of the wind", so you could guess how the fanfics come up with these alleged names. Bluerfn 09:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article has too much game detail

This list is becoming a gameguide, with details on how to obtain GFs and details on where to go for backstory information bloating the point of the article...actually, I'm beginning to see that there isn't really a point for this article. — Deckiller 01:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cid Kramer

I really think that the profanity comment was unnecessary. Remember, Zone also called Squall a "son of a ***" on the White SeeD ship, not to mention all the mild profanity Zell uses. Removing. The Legend of Miyamoto 22:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to ask if anyone could edit the Edea, Kiros and Ward pages please, as im relatively new to editing the pages. Thanks to anyone who could do me this favour!!!!

I don't see the point in creating these pages - there is few information about them that warrant such action. All will be directed to the List of Characters article page instead. Good day. 私はBluerfnです 10:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rinoa/Ultimecia speculation

"Not much is known of her history, but is speculated by many fans that she grew up in a time where people hated sorceresses (due to Edea and Adel), and they would also know about SeeD's victory over Ultimecia. Therefore, when she grew up, she chose the name Ultimecia and tried to defy her destiny (or fate). Of couse, this didn't happen, and thus came to the fate she wanted to avoid."

I know it's speculation, but it does give the main antagonist a reasonable reason to do the things she does. I know there is a source that can kind of back it up (it's in Edea's speech near the end of the first disk), but i haven't played the game in a while, so i can't source it. Jammi567 15:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Nobody wrote in the possible link between Ultimcia and Rinoa, it is believed that Ultimcia is a possible future for Rinoa, look at the name of her GF, Griever, the same name of Squall's Necklace. And then Squall told Rinoa that he would be her sorceress knight. It isnt explecitivly stated, but the connection is their. doodlebombchris

That's also unsourced speculation not supported by in-game information beyond creative interpretation by fans. Peptuck 07:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

yep, and poor speculation at best. Jammi568 15:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That evidence is laughable. Check out my take on it. By the way, not to be rude but you need spell check, doodlebombchris. -Eileen-

Here it is: This so called strong evidence is an entire series of assumptions that are so wrong its a joke. The first is that Rinoa is immortal, which is stated in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide published by Square that sorceresses have normal lifespans, Adel wouldn't need a successor if sorceresses are immortal (Ellone is kidnapped because of this in the game). Second is Rinoa's wings going from angel white (there's a lot of emphasis on this in the game) to black, there's no evidence of her being "an evil sorceress" in the game, if you watch the opening video, the wings change as Squall gets injured during the duel. It may be a warning of the fated sorceress fights (Edea and Ultimecia), (Rinoa, if you notice is worried about her powers until Edea tells her about having a knight, and everything changes, she's calmer). The third assumption is that Rinoa's words with Squall about stopping time on the Ragnarok somehow supports this theory, she didn't want to leave Squall and be stuck in space(She even goes with the Esthar officials to do just that to protect people in case she gets possessed, doesn't sound like an evil sorceress does it?). The four assumption is that Rinoa forgets Squall (after becoming Ultimecia) and tries to kill Squall and of course as she's being defeated give him the lecture about time (Rinoa didn't know him in childhood nor does she hate SeeD's (She's in love with the Commander of SeeD, Squall, after all.) The next assumption is that Ultimecia wants to get Squall back through Time Compression (if he's dead from her acts how can she get him back?). Also Ultimecia doesn't have a knight which is why she is assumed to be crazy (Rinoa does have one and so is sane), more importantly Ultimecia is called "she" by Rinoa, and has "hate in her heart" not suiting to Rinoa's free spirit (she doesn't want to alienate people), Ultimecia also tries to kill Rinoa and Squall (no evidence is given to say Rinoa would have continued to use GF's and forgotten her past and Squall). Ultimecia's accent is not present in Rinoa's speech, she spits out words with C's perfectly so where would she have acquired it?. As for the assumption that Ultimecia's castle is in Edea's house (it floats or else why would it have chains keeping it down?) and it matches the opening words of the game of the protagonists being Fated Children. Edea's House is not enterable. The appearance assumption is also wrong (all FF8 women's faces look alike) and what I find most interesting is that Ultimecia has gray hair. The Griever necklace assumption is also shot down because Rinoa doesn't know what is on his ring, and if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF." Two more pieces of evidence are also important, the first is Ultimecia can't be Rinoa or else they can't fight each other in her castle, Ultimecia does't recognize Squall at all (Rinoa would since use of GF's are debatable. In fact Rinoa doesn't seem to be affected by memory loss due to GF use she remembered the Deling City incident and Squall doesn't (In the flower field scene) and Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia three times which would explain Squall's image in Time Compression (Remember past, present and future are all mixed up) and Squall did see Rinoa's possession by Ultimecia through Ellone on Lunar Base and it could be it as simple as he remembering that along with everything at once (Time Compression is sometimes just unexplainable). The second piece of very important evidence is that FF8 is a love story (like fairy tales they have happy endings and Rinoa being evil and crazy beings her out of character context.) If anyone reads the Rinoa Heartilly article and looks at the sources, and reads the articles on Flare Gamer it says that Normura likes Rinoa alot (why have her be the antagonist? Is it too show his liking for the character to have Rinoa supposely become Ultimecia?) By the way Rinoa's alive after Time Compression and the world is safe and Ultimecia is dead after giving her powers to Edea. If Square wanted to make a link between the characters why not have Ultimecia give her powers to Rinoa? (If I might add, not all sorceresses give up there powers in fact all of them except Adel, Ultimecia and Edea (Rinoa is excluded) die without giving up their powers and Rinoa received Edea's powers after Ultimecia gave Rinoa the sorceress embodiment power but Edea has her powers until she goes to the Lunatic Pandora after catching it she gets thrown out and stops being a sorceress and Rinoa receives Edea's sorcery and becomes a sorceress). Lastly, Rinoa can't be Ultimecia for all these reasons and this theory is false. Ultimecia is just a sorceress from the future who is not loved and so created her end herself. Saying that Rinoa is Ultimecia is like saying since no one knows where Necron came from, then I guess he must be Zidane right? -Eileen-

So, in short, Ultimecia (and Necron for that matter) are not related to the stories events, they are just tagged in at the end for shear difficulty? Safer-Seph and Yu Yevon had back story, It feels sloppy on Square's part to put these meaningless boss fights at the end of these games. Oh, and have you checked out the story explanations on Gamefaqs for FF8 and 9, I read them a couple years ago, and they add a lot of insight on these topics. -Doodlebomb

If you're saying Ultimecia isn't releated to VIII's events, then you obviously are not paying attention. Ultimecia was directly involved throughout all of FFVIII. Or did you forget that the whole time in the first two discs of VIII that Edea was simply Ultimecia in Edea's body? Peptuck 04:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Peptuck, Doddlebomb obviously missed the point entirely. Now for his clarification, here's my main point: I am giving in game evidence to point out exactly how ridiculous the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory really is. There's no evidence that isn't speculation in this theory. My evidence is based on the undebatable--the in game events--to support the argument of the vast majority of FFVIII players have, that there is no link between Rinoa/Ultimecia. I have read the Gamesfaqs story explanations and your right they are good, but not official, it is just some fan base opinion and interpretation. Dooddlebomb, please do yourself a favor and read the official story analysis, Square Enix's FFVIII Ultimania Guide. It all but ends the debate by saying sorceresses are not immortal, so connecting Rinoa/Ultimecia is as far fetched as saying Necron is Zidane especially since Garland didn't say that there is a time limit on Zidane's soul, so there must be a connection right? -Eileen-

unfortunatly, not many people are able to read Japanise. and anyway, the guide mentioned uses loads of evidence from within the game to back up his theories. Jammi568 01:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not only in Japanese, it exists in English. His evidence is really lacking. Peptuck even says "That's also unsourced speculation not supported by in-game information beyond creative interpretation by fans."

The important word there is speculation. I use in game evidence that isn't easily written off as speculative at best. I challenge anymore to find me one ingame proof of Rinoa being Ultimecia (aka script) otherwise your wasting everyone's time. Perhaps we need to look at the definition of the word "theory" and no a change of wings at the beginning of the game doesn't count because it is a symbol of trouble not of the future and notice that the black wings fall as Edea's image comes into form. Don't try to tell me that Rinoa is Ultimecia because Rinoa doesn't have trouble saying words with C's as K's. That by itself is enough to end the theory. I have read various theories which claim that Ultimecia can change Edea's hair and stuff but you can't change someone's language. Observe my challenge to it, my argument is well supported by evidence. Sorceresses are not immortal is what the Square Guide says, which means Ultimecia is not Rinoa. -Eileen-

I found a website that pulls certain dialect and offers explanations to the problem. This website also states that Sorceresses are not immortal, but must pass their powers on before they die. I think it is possible that Rinoa is Ultimecia, but this will be my final post on the matter, because this issue could become as difficult as the Zelda timeline. http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2005/q2/041805gm.html-doodlebomb

If Sorceresses have to pass on their powers before they die, then why is Rinoa alive at the end of the game? (If she were Ultimecia she'd be dead). Besides all the sorceress except Ultimecia and Adel keep their powers when they are defeated. (Look at the Time Compression fights, last I heard not one time compression sorceress gave their powers to Rinoa.) I just think this theory is not true and I seriously hate it because I think Rinoa is a childish character, but I like her. I don't believe in hating pixels so I think of this theory as an attack on Rinoa by the polarized group of people that don't like her. Besides Square doesn't write so much irony. It doesn't sound like them. I don't care whether you believe this theory or not it is not important as long as you don't write about it on Wikipedia since it is a fan theory and subject to the original research ban. -Eileen-

"It's not only in Japanese, it exists in English" last time i checked, most of the screenshots people show of the guides are in Japanese. If there was a English writen one, i'm sure someone would've mentioned it somewhere, but as no-one has....Jammi568 15:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe you can get one on Amazon, but I'll look around. I have seen it in English, but it may be hard to get. -Eileen-

[edit] Your recent edits

Peptuck, I have a serious problem with your recent edits to FF8. No offense but could you stop acting like you own the FF8 pages and everyone has to earn your approval to write their edits to your pages. Second, I have a problem a problem with your constant obsession with the words "Primary antagonist or Primary protagonist. There's an easier solution, and one that has sources which you love so much. "Squall is the silent hero of FF8." If you don't know that then you haven't played 8 and therefore have no right to comment on it. It stays in the game manual that he is the "taciturn and reluctant hero" (or something like it), so if you or anyone changes it, I'll be ticked off seriously. Third, your changes to the pages are worse than they were previously not better. Could you just leave 8 alone, could you haven't improved I'm afraid? Sorry if I sound ticked off, but it is because I am. -Eileen-

Antagonist/protagonist are better words to use in an encyclopedia; "silent hero" implies that he is a silent protagonist, much like Serge or Chrono, and that is not the case. If it says "taciturn and reluctant hero" in the manual, we can't use the words directly, becuase it would be a copyvio. — Deckiller 02:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The information I removed from Seifer and Ultimecia's entries is either original research or fancruft. None of it is sourced, either. Squall is not a silent protagonist, so calling him a silent hero is incorrect. He is the primary protagonist of the story, as it does focus mostly on him.

I'm sorry I'm bothering you by enforcing Wikipedia's own policies, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop, and judging by the history page, others agree with me. Peptuck 07:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

if you mean the information in the above section, then i actually state that it's speculation, but adds a backstory to a character that most people think is redundant. Jammi567 12:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

But there's no sourcing for it, and from my experience with the game, there's no actual indication within the game that this is so. And I've been playing the game since it came out back in 2000. It may be said in some other source, perhaps an Ultimania guide, but as far as I'm aware the Ultimecia information is speculatory theory at best. Peptuck 15:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, because this keeps getting reverted, I've decided to show what I keep removing, and why, and what Wikipedia policies relate to it.

(whom he recognized as the woman who ran the orphanage he grew up in with the main protagonists), - There is no indication that he knew this when he was first recruited by her. Though later on he does say that she was their Matron, this information may have been revealed at any time, and he says nothing regarding this when Squall first encounters him as Edea's knight. This is unsourced, and challenged information, and per WP:Verifiability its been removed.

It is also believed that Seifer may have had his views brainwashed with a spell, due to his sudden change in attitude toward his assassination of Edea and his "dream" changing from "Romantic" to "Becoming a Knight", but his honor keeps him from the Sorceress Edea's full control. As above, there is no supporting evidence, and the line itself says that it is a "belief," and not supported by evidence in-game. WP:OR.

"However, it should be noted that from the initial computer panel at the start of the game, a book, Sorceress' Knight: Scenario Edition is listed as overdue. Presumably this is taken out by Seifer, and therefore it is implied at least somewhat Seifer wished this role for himself." Same as above. We don't know who checked out the book, and this itself is fancruft.

Hyperion section - changed to flow and read better.

It also seems to be indicated that her actions will result in her suffering intense persecution before she ever actually commits the deeds for which she is scorned. Future generations, aware of the coming of Ultimecia thanks to her failed attempt at Time Compression, react with hostility toward all sorceresses, fearing that any one of them could eventually become the "cold-blooded tyrant" that history remembers her as. This prejudice, in turn with her fear of death, is perhaps what drove Ultimecia — condemned for crimes she had not even yet committed — to evil in the first place, thus perpetuating the cycle. Unsourced, speculation, original research. I haven't seen a source within the game that supports this.

Peptuck 20:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think that paragraph isn't original research because I think Ultimecia's speech as Edea may back it up so do go erasing it just yet, because I may be able to find a source for it but it will take a few days. I also made the intro smoother. -Eileen-

From Edea's speech in Galbadia:

"...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."

As can be seen, she flat out states that she was condemned by the people (clearly in the future, as that is where Ultimecia really is). She also clearly indicates what impression people in the future have of sorceresses. And finally, since the events of FF8 would almost certainly be written down, I see it as being fairly reasonable to think that fear of Ultimecia's rise could contribute to the animosity felt towards sorceresses - Sir Bahamut.

That's not conclusive information. Who is to say that she's not talking about the Galbadians of the present time? That she's not talking about the very Sorceress War that raged less than two decades prior to the events at that moment? While this is Ultimecia speaking, we have no idea of what frame of reference she's using, who she's talking about (is she talking about herself, or another Sorceress? "the one you have condemned" can mean Sorceresses in general, or one in particular), and whether or not its her own experiences or those of history. All we can conclude from this is that Sorceresses may have been persecuted, but since she makes no reference to time beyond "generations", it can be interpreted in any variety of ways. Peptuck 16:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that generations generally refers to the future. -Eileen-

Not necessarily. If I were to say "X ethnic group has been condemned for generations" would I be talking about the future? Or would I be talking about how "X ethnic group" has been condemned in the past? We can't be certain if Ultimecia is talking about herself, future Sorceresses, or past Sorceresses. Peptuck 21:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

But it would make the most sense if she was talking about the future. Because there's nothing to indicate that Sorceresses were prosocuted and hunted before Adel became ruler around 20 years before the main events of the game. Jammi568 16:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There's also nothing to indicate they were afterward, beyond vague references from Ultimecia which can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Can we prove she was referencing herself, or is she referencing Sorceresses prior to her? Keep in mind, she's addressing a population in the past, from before any suppossed persecution of herself takes place; if there was no persecution of Sorceresses in the past, then why would she accuse the Galbadians of persecuting Sorceresses?

I hate to say it, but just as with the Rinoa/Ultimecia speculation, the only in-game evidence is very vague lines that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Peptuck 16:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

exactly! which must mean she's referencing the future, if there was no prosicution in the past from the point on which she says it (near the end of disk 1)Jammi568 18:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If there is no persecution. There is evidence that, at the very least, Sorceresses generate a very powerful fear in normal people. Characters have already exhibited a fear of Sorceresses before. Martine orders an assassination because the Sorceress will create fear among other nations when used as an ambassador, in order to leverage power on Galbadia's side. Rinoa is terrified she'll be a Sorceress because of the stigma attached to being one; she says, outright, that no one would want to be around her, because of fear of her. Squall tries to reassure her by saying there have been good Sorceresses before, with the implication of evil ones being added there.

So, we have a powerful stigma and fear attached to being a Sorceress, and not just from Ultimecia's presence, either. Ultimecia could have been speaking of any form of persecution at any point in time, regarding any Sorceress or group of Sorceresses, or even Sorceresses as a whole.

This is not reliable evidence of motivation; all we have are conclusions drawn from vague lines of dialogue which could have a wide variety of meanings behind them. Peptuck 05:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blood types

The FF8 character pages include blood types in the infobox. Out of curiosity, is there a source for these blood types?

Given the Japanese cultural belief regarding blood types affecting personality, I don't think it's inappropriate to include this information, but I've never seen any mention of what the characters' blood types are in the game. Bhamv 06:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Blood types are mentioned in the manual, I believe. I'd need to dig my copy up, its somewhere around the house here, but I think it lists age and blood type. Peptuck 06:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It is in the Bradygames Official Guide. I have one so I can verify this. They are not mentioned in the manual, only height and age. I believe the only manual that does mention blood type is FF7. -Eileen-