Talk:Chastity

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I think the first sentence isn't NPOV in proclaiming chastity as the "state of sexual purity", without qualification along the lines of "according to most mainstream Christian doctrine" (or something more accurate if that isn't viewed accurate). Alternatively, would it be fair to just delete references to "sexual purity" and just stick to the facts - no sex if you're not married, sex only with your spouse if you are? --Robert Merkel

This most seems to duplicate sexual abstinence... I ponder merging. Martin

Merge away Martin.

I removed

"Chastity" can be used to refer to other sexual recommendations:

• Sex should be solely for the purpose of biological reproduction. This form of chastity limits sexual activity to fertile heterosexual couples who are not using contraception.

This is recommended by some groups, but I have never heard of a case where 'chastity' is used to describe whether or not you are using contraception.

DJ Clayworth 15:56, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I did the merge. :) Martin 00:19, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh dear, I think the merge is just a radical misconception. But I won't argue, it's so obvious... Pfortuny 17:25, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Undid redirect, wrote article 2 Removed portions 3 Natural Family Planning an Offense Against Chastity? 4 Celibacy is not Chastity is not Abstinence 5 Cultural bias 6 Clerics and Catholicism (roman)

[edit] Undid redirect, wrote article

I though redirecting chastity to sexual abstinence addresses a very superficial and narrow point-of-view, so I wrote an article which I think is fairly NPOV. For those of you who would like to see an example of chastity as part of a documented system of ethics, look here [1].

The article is very brief. Please expand to include examples from other ethical systems. In particular, I have little knowledge of far eastern ethical systems and religions. --Mm35173 14:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't quite understand how "coitus within the context of marital fidelity" can be considered chastity. Also, while I know many Baptist groups prohibit dancing, I don't know whether they'd consider it a violation of chastity. If so, it might be added to the list of possible offenses against chastity. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 22:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

"The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude." Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:" - Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also, St. Ambrose said, "There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church." The Baptists' proscription of dancing is very interesting. Is that because they think that dancing is an expression of sexuality which is contrary to God's plan, or is it merely a mechanism to prevent temptation? If it is the former, then yes, it would be unchaste in the Catholic sense of the word, but if it is the latter, then it is not. --24.176.68.73 14:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should be more explicit about what is a Roman Catholic definition of "chastity" on this page then. Merriam-Webster's dictionary has two relevant definitions: "abstention from any sexual intercourse reprobated by religion or condemned by morality" (by which definition married people can engage in sex and still be chaste; the R.C. definition) and "abstention from all sexual intercourse" (by which definition they can't; not the R.C. definition). As for the Baptists' proscription on dancing, I can't say for sure because I'm not a Baptist, and not all Baptists prohibit it (there are as many different Baptist theologies as there are Baptist churches, because they're organized congregationally), but I think those that do condemn it do so because they fear it will arouse lust, rather than because dancing is itself a sexual act. I suspect even married people aren't allowed to dance with each other, though. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 17:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Since the very word (and the notion) predates christianity, and is not limited to Abrahamic religions, it is only linguistic logic that the word remains in use as (at least historically, forever) a moral/religious concept, while a more distant, descriptive term as sexual abstinence belongs in a different, profane semantic register, so DON'T merge, whatever you do; and yes, the precise implemenatation does differ per religion, and may even shift over time Fastifex 12:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

To what I said above I might add that the "abstention from all sexual intercourse" defintion of chastity might well be the Shaker view; at any rate they didn't marry and could only have children by adopting them. I don't know whether they used the word "chastity" to define their insistence on celibacy, though. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 12:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems they did, according to [2], so I'm adding the information. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 12:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed portions

The paragraph on vows of chastity originally read:

Vows of chastity can also be taken by laymen, either as part of an argoasied religious life (such as Catholic beguins and begards) or on an individual basis, as a voluntary act of devotion and/or as part of an ascetic lifestyle, often devoted to contemplation.

I edited this to remove the words "argoasied" (which seems to be a typo, but I can't tell for what), "beguin" (which means "infatuation" and so makes no sense in this context), and "begard" (which as far as I can tell is not a word of English). --Angr (t·c) 06:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I would guess that "argoasied" was originally meant to be "organized", as it's the only word I can think of that would work in that context and shares a number of letters and letter combonations (nearly all; o, a, i, rg, ed. Also, in the British spelling system, sometimes s is used for what in the American spelling system is spelled with a z). It would make perfect sense in that context, as I've never really heard of "Vows of Chastity" being taken outside of the context of a religious organization or group (I have seen the term "Abstinence Pledge" used in reference to sexual abstinence and used in secular contexts, usually as a part of sex ed, especially abstinence-only sex ed, though). Your guess is still as good as mine on "begards", though. :P Runa27 05:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Good guessing- organized is right; the other pair you couldn't guess, it refers to a Catholic type of open convent-life without formal vows (so technically not clergy) predominantly found in the Low Countries, where they are called in my native Dutch Begijnen (most are women, still o few 'begijnhoven'=convents) and Begarden (men), but tanslations into French vary, and I guess also in English - Catholic Encyclopaedia and Etymology On Line both use Beguines & Beghards, so that's probably the best choice. Fastifex 13:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Fastifex. I've restored the bit about beguines and beghards now that you've explained what they are, and added links to the relevant articles. User:Angr 14:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Natural Family Planning an Offense Against Chastity?

Is their a source for this, because this surely is NOT the Catholic view, or any other Christian view that supports NFP as far as I know. NFP would be seen as promoting chastity not violating it. (Assuming no argument, will change this portion later) -- Jbamb 20:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, the organization was unclear and I misread. -- Jbamb 20:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Celibacy is not Chastity is not Abstinence

This page is one big muddle. Although in common usage today celibacy chastity and abstinence all pretty much just mean "not having sex" that is not their historical or current religious meaning, which is what the page is supposedly here to explain.

Celibacy means renunciation of marriage (and necessarily includes abstinence)

Chastity means godly sexual behavior according to your position in life. Historically that has meant virginity and modesty before marriage, monogamous fertility within marriage, and abstinence for those in religious order

Abstinence means not having sex, and is always part of celibacy but not always part of chastity.

These different categories really need to be explained. DanB DanD 18:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, the definitions are different from culture to culture and religion to religion. Somewhere on this talk page I've mentioned two dictionary definitions of "chastity", and the fact that for the Shakers at least, "chastity" entails both celibacy and abstinence, while for Roman Catholics it does not. We cannot stick to just one definition and chastity and still retain an NPOV. User:Angr 18:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think an NPoV would view the idea historically, and a historical view would acknowledge the dominance of a Catholic-and-Orthodox-shaped conception of sexual morality--the Shakers are cool but they didn't exactly make Western culture. And they were consciously reacting against a culture that meant something different by "chastity" than they did.

Not sure what to do about a non-Western context. The word is specifically European, but should there be a goal of finding analogous concepts in other cultures, or treat the article as specifically about one evolving cultural form?, with separate articles about sexual rules in other religions and cultures where they occur? Trouble is it's unlikely any wiki-folk know enough about non-western cultures to say much that's useful about their traditions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DanB DanD (talk • contribs) 19:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly more space can be given to Catholic and Orthodox views of chastity than to Shaker views, but we should also be careful not to define chastity only in terms of one group's definition. And certainly the article should not be written in such a way as to preclude the possibility of non-Western views being added in the future, even if you and I aren't able to add anything. Even Westerners can go to the library and do some research on non-Western views of chastity. User:Angr 19:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, having now read through the sexual abstinence page, I think that's where non-Western perspectives should go--or on a more general "religion and sexuality" page, or a specific page of their own if the treatment is in-depth.

It was decided to keep a separate page for "Chastity" instead of merging it with sexual abstinence, so I think to justify the separation this page ought to be a detailed study of a culturally specific concept. "Chastity" is a Christian/European-derived conception of right sexual behavior, so I (now) don't think it would be accurate to try to fold ideas from other cultures into that.

One thing the page does need is pre-Christian conceptions of sexual morality in Europe that influenced the idea of chastity--Lucretia in Rome and so on.

DanB DanD 20:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural bias

Article is missing the Islamic sense of chastity which is quite strong and part of the Sharia Law.

In addition, there is the whole Mediterranean sense of "honor" that is not associated with any one country or people but which seems to (historically in most places and still today in some places) require a substantial protection of women.

--Blue Tie 14:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clerics and Catholicism (roman)

I edited/reworked this section, hopefully makeing it more clear. I also corrected/updated the current law ref the promise of celibacy, and included the footnote for Anglicans being received as Catholics. I doubt anyone actually wants to read all the specific decrees of various nations, and they do change, but if so, I can provide refs for the United States and Great Britian.DaveTroy 09:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)