Talk:Chemical substance

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Does chemicals include mining?

Should def 2 be moved to "chemical industry" or something like that? The idea with having this sort of an entry is to have a target to link to from descriptions of a nation's economy, such as Gabon/Economy.

"Chemical industry" sounds more English to me, FWIW. -- Marj Tiefert, Tuesday, April 23, 2002

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There should be an article named chemical substance or substance (chemistry) for the meaning 1. Andres.

Contents 1 Clarification of terms 2 List of chemicals 3 Is this a disambiguation page? 4 General overview? 5 Explaining metal, bond, ion, etc. 6 Merge with chemical compound? 7 Rating

[edit] Clarification of terms

The current definition of chemical substance is inadequate- it was originally written as a definition of the word "chemical" and is more appropriate for that.

We need two changes:

1. We need to revise the current definition for chemical substance.

2. We need definitions for BOTH the term chemical substance and the term chemical. The page for "chemical" (quite appropriately) gives a redirect to THIS page.

Regarding #1, I actually thought that an earlier definition of "chemical" (25 June 2004, see history) was a lot closer to the correct meaning of "chemical substance", but maybe others can supply an even better definition. The current definition (with its emphasis on process), with modification, might be an appropriate definition for the word "chemical", which in fact is what it was written for.

Regarding #2, I think we need to face up to the fact that "chemical" and "chemical substance" are NOT interchangeable terms. The ambiguity of meaning for the word "chemical" led this page to (thankfully!) be renamed as "chemical substance". Evidence for the difference in meaning:

• In popular usage, the word "chemical" has a connotation of being artificial. Under this definition, chlorine is a chemical but chlorophyll is not. A Google search for "free from chemicals" gave 4750 hits, as opposed to only 45 hits for "free from chemical substances". Examples include baby products, organic food and aromatherapy oils. While some of us may chuckle at some of the claims made about such products, the fact remains that the word "chemical" is tainted by this.
• In my copy of Encyclopædia Britannica (admittedly abridged to only 2CDs), the term "chemical" only ever seems to be applied to products of the chemical industry. The term chemical substance isn't in fact used in titles, though other terms such as chemical compound are used.

We can either give a common definition for both terms, followed by clarification of the vernacular usage of the term "chemical", or else we need two separate definitions. These same definitions might also be added to Category:Chemical_substances. Would someone care to write some definitions?

Walkerma 18:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

First, this is only a disambiguation page and there ought not be articles on "chemical" or "chemical substance", for they could only be dictionary entries, which is not what Wikipedia is about. This page is here only so that someone looking for "chemical" or "chemical substance" will find what they are looking for by following the links to which the page presently points.

The current definition is precisely the definition for "chemical substance".

Use in marketing is not a good way of seeing what a term means. The purpose of the industry is to attract consumers, without regard to strict discrete definitions. Ambiguity is encouraged so that consumers may equate or con-fuse two things which are in fact different. Anyhow, use in marketing is only a small part of the use of the word "chemical", which is more an abbreviation of "chemical substance" than an entirely different term. That a marketer prefers the simpler and shorter "chemical" to the longer "chemical substance" does not constitute a difference in meaning. In the Encyclopaedia Britannica (online edition), there is no entry for the word "chemical" or "chemical substance" because, as said above, such entries are not appropriate for an encyclopedia. The use of the word "chemical" in the EB is mostly as an adjective (relating to chemistry, etc.), because as a noun it is a nonspecific word that is inappropriate in an explicatory work.

There is nothing in a "chemical substance" (or "chemical"), in itself (per se), that distinguishes the substance from other things. Chemical elements and chemical compounds are only in the same category insofar as they are used in chemical processes, but they are not similar substances. What is a "chemical substance" if not a "chemical"? - Centrx 01:55, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] List of chemicals

Where would be a place for a list of chemicals like this: de:Chemikalienliste ? The thing closest to that seems to be Wikipedia:Chemical infoboxes which is surely not intended to be used as list of chemicals. 84.160.221.99 18:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is such a list, quite an extensive one, at List of compounds. In the English version we separate chemical elements from chemical compounds- so to get to the list like de:Chemikalienliste you need to follow the link to Chemical compound then you see it listed under "see also". I should mention that we are currently considering splitting list of compounds into organic and inorganic compounds, see Talk:List_of_compounds#propose_dividing_list_into_2_web_pages. I am still going through the organics, but I have done the inorganics, see List of inorganic compounds. Before this split started, I also started a page called Inorganic compounds by element, an alternative way of listing them, but I have suspended work on that until I finish doing List of organic compounds. Walkerma 23:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Update- this split is almost complete- now a 3-way split- and list of compounds will cease to be a list at the end of May 2005. After this, please see list of biomolecules, list of organic compounds and list of inorganic compounds. Walkerma 17:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a disambiguation page?

I'm not sure this is really a disambiguation page. It's not so much that the term "chemical substance" is inherently ambiguous, merely that the term deliberately refers to a group of things, each of which has its own (comprehensive) article, and so an overarching article is unnecessary. It probably isn't necessary to disambiguate incoming links, because the term "chemical substance" is deliberately non-specific. So I'm proposing that the page be left as-is and merely the disambiguation notice be removed. Soo 00:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I support that. Soo has summed up the situation eloquently - when people make a link to chemical/chemicals/Chemical substance (which all redirect here) they don't know if it's an ion/compund/element they just want a general discussion. Remove the {{disambig}} tag.--Commander Keane 19:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Support. I agree, this page clearly is not a dab page, it is only structured as a dab page. It does need to be rewritten at some point and structured to be a regular article. Thaagenson 18:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Done, {{disambig}} removed.--Commander Keane 18:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I tentatively accept that this page may not be so strictly a disambiguation page, but what is the reason for the total reorganization of its content into several sections that clutter the page? - Centrx 19:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia cater only to professionals? Is there no room for an article that gives a reader a general idea of what a "chemical substance" might be without wading through 5 or 6 (or 10 or 12) other articles? Furthermore, based on the number of links to this article, some editors don't particularly care to distinguish what (if anything) they specifically mean by this term, either. Ewlyahoocom 10:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, it just needs someone to write it - and writing "general" articles like this is always harder than it seems (something like sodium hydroxide is much easier). Maybe this summer I'll have a go at writing this, though there are so many chem articles like this needing a lot of work. Maybe you could nominate it for the next Chemistry Collaboration of the Month? Walkerma 15:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not object to this, per se, but this is not accomplished by simply copying the first paragraph of all of the other articles, and the way it was done sent the article off the screen where before it fit compactly. - Centrx 00:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General overview?

Having noticed that you added the classification to it of "stub", I wonder what you think about how this article fits. It used to be classified as a disambiguation page that referred to the respective chemical element, chemical compound, atom, etc., but now it has been suggested to transform it into a top-level summary of a chemical substance in general. However, because of that, I don't see how it could ever become anything more than a stub. - Centrx 21:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this page has never really been much more than a type of disambiguation page. It could be a full length article, though. At the chemistry wikiproject, it was listed on the worklist as one of the basic concepts in chemistry, and therefore worthy of an article, that's why it was picked out for assessment. I think at some point someone - maybe yours truly - will write a full article on the subject as it's pretty fundamental. Can you see a better way of covering the subject area? Walkerma 04:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of what would be in it other than overviews of information already in other articles. General information about reactions? General safe handling? General information about chemistry, bonding..? - Centrx 06:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, I think we'll just have to see if someone gets around to writing it. Chemical compound is very short too, so there is "room" for coverage of this material. Walkerma 07:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed the intro, and upgraded the rather nerdy description of the term 'chemical substance' to a more mondaine one .. isn't everything a chemical substance? What I mean is, the man in the street reads newspapers, and when a truck with ethanol has had an accident, the press describes the compound suddenly as a chemical substance. I think this page could be used to tell what a chemical substance is, I would even suggest to make some general compound point back to this page, if reasonably possible. No stub mark, not necessary, though it could use some more down-to-earth examples. But indeed, keep the page small and comprehensive. --Dirk Beetstra 07:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Though all matter consists of chemical substances, any instance of matter is not an instance of a chemical substance. It is not accurate to say that "every substance is also a chemical substance". Mixtures are not chemical substances, it is not a chemical unit and it is not obtained by a chemical process; it is a physical process (in the large-scale Newtonian sense): you pour them together or such. The ethanol in the accident truck is a chemical substance, but the milk in such a truck is not. The air is not a chemical substance, and if the plastic in the casing of the reader's computer or the glass in the reader's water-drinking cup is a mixture, such as with coloring, then they are not chemical substances. - Centrx 23:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you are right, I agree. That sentence is not correct, and some others need some tweeking, I think the page is better of without that introductory section. But please help me getting the thing out that I try to tell, that many things are made of chemical substances, even if these compounds are NOT made by someone in a dirty white coat, with a pair of labglasses on his nose. So indeed, the milk in a similar truck is not a chemical substance, but a mixture of chemical substances, even if they are not man-made, most of them are made by (bio)chemical processes. And that was what the page was originally talking about, that all chemical substances were man-made. Thanks for the correction. --Dirk Beetstra 01:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think with mixtures, you only need make the phrase into the plural form "substances" and you're OK. I must say, the phrase "any material substance used in or obtained by a process in chemistry" really grates on me, it doesn't seem right. It implies that a chemical process is necessary to create it - not true. Furthermore, it carries nuances (not deliberately) that suggest that it has to come from a chemical plant, exactly the sort of thinking we want to avoid. I'm aware, though, that general terms such as this are the very hardest to pin down.

Getting to the earlier discussion, as I see it we could either have this article be extensive and leave chemical compound pretty short, or we could make this short and make chemical element and chemical compound longer, the main places where this sort of material is covered with. Which do you prefer? We can adjust the Chemistry WikiProject goals to match. I'm thinking of the high school student just learning about substances and compounds and mixtures, and who is trying to understand the concepts and associated aspects clearly. Walkerma 04:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with the intro now. Chemical substances are not only substances made by chemical industry or whatever, chemical substances are broader. I am reverting the edit. --Dirk Beetstra 13:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The page said nothing about industry, and examples of air, rocks, and trees—let alone sugar, gold, and chairs—are not examples of things made in industry. Reverting the edit to a misleading revision without discussion is not the solution. You may object to constricting reference to chemistry in the first sentence, which I have changed so it is not confined to uses in chemistry. It does not accurate to excessively provide examples of general matter; "chemical substance" is not simply a synonym for "things" or "matter" or "stuff". — Centrx 02:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No Centrx, it did, see [1]. That is what I reverted, substances are not chemical chemical substances when they are used in chemical industry. But we are reverting back and forth now, so that makes no sense. But I do believe that the examples can be better than what they are now, defining 'stone' as a mixture of chemical compounds does not clarify it enough in my opinion. The alcohol in a truck, used for chemical industry is nothing else than the alcohol they are drinking in a shot of whisky. --Dirk Beetstra 09:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the best solution to this is to look up some definitions in major reference works and textbooks, then cite the reference. I think we can find something that we can all agree on that way. I'm away at a conference, so I can't really do that now myself. Walkerma 13:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Where does it refer to industry? If you mean chemistry, which is not confined to the "chemical industry", I have altered that sentence to possibly be more accurate. What is your specific objection? It can't be the business of an encyclopedia article to repeatedly re-assert identities, that yes, indeed, ethanol = ethanol. As for the truck and the whisky, the thing is that the whisky is something else than the ethanol in the truck, it has many other ingredients. -- Centrx 17:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Oeps, you are right in that, I misread, sorry about that. But I think I disliked the 'process in chemistry', though it is true, it gives me a feeling of chemicals being only there in laboratories handled by (wo)men in white labcoats, or by large industries making a lot of black smoke, and not outside. But I think we agree now on the introductory sentence, no problems with that. It is closer to the point that I'd like to see in the article, everything is made up of chemical substances (either pure, or in mixtures). However, I do believe that expanding some examples as to what are the typical chemical substances in the normal things around the reader, both manmade, biochemical, as well as, due to fysical processes would help the explanation. --Dirk Beetstra 18:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

We seem to collide, but I see that you removed the 'back link' (which was difficult to give a proper position) to chemical substance on ion. I think that the definition on chemical substance should now be altered as well. I'll have a go. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right, it is a problem, but removing "ion" would entail the removal of "atom" and "molecule". An "atom" is not, a "molecule" is not, and an "ion" is not a chemical substance (in the way that "chemical substance", "chemical element", "chemical compound" are somewhat like mass nouns), but they are the fundamental units which together, respectively, make up a chemical substance. So, "atom" is under chemical element, "molecule" is under chemical compound (though, broadly all atoms are molecules, and there are some other ambiguities). What does "ion" go under though, possibly electrolyte, or possibly the current organization is not appropriate, or possibly they all should just be removed... -- Centrx 04:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Martin Walker has told me that he has done a major offline rewrite of this article (see my talk page), I am waiting to see what he comes up with (which does not mean that we cannot edit this page, we might bring Martin Walker on additional ideas or subtilities. But in my feeling this is one of the top-level documents of 'chemicals', that is, it is a page that everybody reads, and I think there should be quite a short path 'up' here from commonly encountered chemicals (if people want to know about alcohol or sugar, they will see it is a chemical compound, and get technical data on ethanol (sugar), the first sentence there reads something like 'ethanol (sugar) is a chemical compound' .. then people might go up the tree, 'so, what is now really a chemical compound, I am drinking alcohol (coffee with sugar), what do I do, drink a chemical?', then there they will read what a chemical compound is, and then up to chemical substance (or 'substance (chemical)'), which, I think should then be written without any technicallities, telling that everything is made of (mixtures of) chemical compounds, giving very down to earth examples. But, as I said, I will wait for Martin's edit. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explaining metal, bond, ion, etc.

Yes, all this information can be found by following the link (although in some cases the article introductions are not good for a layman). However, the purpose of transforming the article is to provide a high-level overview of chemical substances in general. Otherwise, there would be no reason to state how many known elements there are, or even that elements are divided into metals and non-metals in the first place, or that compounds are divided into organic and inorganic, or that some have covalent bonding and some ionic. All of this information is found in the linked articles, but if the purpose is a general overview, it needs to be consistent, even, and not skip explanations. —Centrx→talk 23:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good point, I'll try and work on it if you don't get to it first. Regarding bonding, we need to keep things brief, because if we're not careful it could get off-subject. I tried to keep it focussed on things that have a "first-order" connection with chemical substances, but some "second-order" things like metals are close enough to first-order to warrant more detail in places. Thanks also to both Centrx and Dirk for the copyedits. Walkerma 04:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do we study pure substances and mixtures?

To understand what everything (including ourselves) is made of, and how things interact with one another. Walkerma 03:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with chemical compound?

Should chemical compound and chemical substance be merged?--Smokefoot 13:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No, don't think so. Sodium and certain alloys are chemical substances, but not chemical compounds.--Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish we could, because there is so much overlap, but unfortunately "substance" is broader because it includes chemical elements. If these were obscure terms it might be OK to merge and explain the differences on a single page, but in this case both pages probably get a lot of hits. Many high school students are unclear on these terms, so for the sake of clarity we should keep them separate. Walkerma 15:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rating

Upgraded it to Start. TerriG149.155.96.5 19:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)