Talk:Christadelphians/Archive 1
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=Archive: up to end of 2004
History, stuff about Logos
A lot of the focus on magazines is just a little bit weird; magazines and their editors simply do not have a big role now. As a historical point, it's probably fair enough to make a statement like "the editor of The Christadelphian has held a unique position within the sect" but it's really rather meaningless. For the last 50 years, any authority has been moral.
The Logos is a dead letter: it has very little influence at all in Australia, a small following in North America, and a few ecclesias in the UK. It might warrant a subsection in its own right for historical interest value, but I think that any comment along the lines of
- (There have always been several magazines circulating among the world-wide body of believers. Perhaps the only other magazine to rival "The Christadelphian" in influence is The Logos, based in Adelaide, Australia, though its current influence is very limited. The Logos was always generally regarded as extremely conservative, and some of its critics maintain that it places too great an emphasis upon the personalities of the founders Thomas and Roberts.)
is basically out of place on a general article on the Christadelphians. (It was in a paragraph on John Thomas and Robert Roberts.) DJP 11:42, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
History about schisms
I have made quite a few amendments to this section. It's only fair to state that I am a Christadelphian, but have tried to be impartial. I have corrected some factual errors, added some clarifications, and attempted to explain the current situation. User:RJB, 12 October 2004
Restructuring article
I have attempted a bit of re-structuring of the article, as there was a fair amount of overlap between the sections, and the opening paragraph was a bit on the lengthy side. In the process, I've only edited or removed text to improve the flow of the text. RJB, 15 October 2004
Statement of Faith
I have moved this from the "Beliefs" section to the "Organisation" section. The most commonly used Statement of Faith is the basis of ecclesial interaction, but outside of this, it is rarely referred to, and almost never used in evangelisation work. RJB 19:30, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Roberts' Autobiography
I have removed the following sentence, as it didn't appear to add anything of relevance and is tangential to the article on Christadelphians. "Perhaps the most moving passages of Roberts' autobiography are those describing how he dealt with the conviction that his former colleagues would have no part in the coming Kingdom of God." RJB 19:35, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Article at www.religioustolerance.org
I have removed the link to the religioustolerance.org article as it contains several inaccuracies which have not been corrected, despite repeated requests over a period of 9 months.
I would be happy to replace the link as soon as they update their material.
Minor editing.
I have added a few external links to the article. I hope that readers will find them useful. I have also clarified a few points (eg. our conscientious objection is not based on pacifism) thrown in a few facts and figures (Christadelphian population worldwide) and edited the section on the three main doctrines that we reject.
I have added a bit in the History section (and in the Also see section) about the Church of the Blessed Hope (CGAF), and I have also added the word described in the following sentence (about the BASF): Anyone who publicly assents to the doctrines described in this statement and is in good standing in their "home ecclesia" (if they have one) is generally welcome to participate in the activities of any other ecclesia. LJB
Additional changes.
I have reworded a few paragraphs.
How many Christadelphians?
I have amended the figures for the number of Christadelphians. 10-15,000 in the UK is a generally agreed figure; and 6,000 in Australia. Higher figures are sometimes quoted (for example 10,000 in a religious survey of Australia) because children and family members of Christadelphians are included. However, Christadelphians only view as members those who have accepted Christadelphian beliefs and have subsequently been baptised.
Based on the above figures, the figures published by the Christadelphian Bible Mission organisations, the 2001 Canadian Census, and anecdotally from North America, it would seem the worldwide membership of Christadelphia is currently around 50,000.
The focus on ecclesia size in England and Australia seemed a little irrelevant, and comparison with the congregations of other denominations is also problematic due to large variation in congregation size both in Christadelphia and other denominations.
RJB 17:03, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- You say: "Higher figures are sometimes quoted (for example 10,000 in a religious survey of Australia) because children and family members of Christadelphians are included." But the Australian figures are taken from a national census, and therefore based upon the personal responses of Australian Christadelphians to the government survey.
- Since, as you correctly observe, "Christadelphians only view as members those who have accepted Christadelphian beliefs and have subsequently been baptised", the 10K figure can only be rejected on the assumption that the Australian Christadelphians have skewed the figures by including unbaptised children and family members on their census forms. However, I do not believe that they have done this (and I speak as an Australian Christadelphian who participated in the national census.) So the figure should be accepted until proven disproved by objective evidence.
- The comparison with Australia and the UK came about because another wiki user had claimed that Christadelphian ecclesias abvove 100 member are extremely rare. I simply wished to correct this categorical statement by qualifying it - and the simplest way to do that was to contrast Australia (where ecclesias are usually large) with the UK (where ecclesias are usually very small.) --Teutonic Knight 10:31, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Apologies, TK, I hadn't noticed your reply - you should have mentioned it when I saw you the other week.
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- Regarding the number of Christadelphians in Australia, I was aware that the 10,000 figure came from the national census. The 6,000 figure I used (2003) came from the Christian Research Association of Australia, who state: "...for the purpose of this account, an estimate has been made that there are approximately 6,000 adult Christadelphians in Australia. If the children of Christadelphian families are included, the total number of Christadelphians and their children is likely to be around 10,000, a number similar to that provided by the Australian Census". If the 6,000 figure does not include baptised Christadelphians who are under 18, then it is probably an underestimate.
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- Christadelphian statistics is a problematic area, since there is no central organisation. Estimates may vary according to how 'Christadelphian' is defined and how the question is asked. For example, the figures from the 2001 UK Census are certainly an underestimate.
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- Sometimes those born to Christadelphian parent(s), but who have never joined the community themselves, ask to be recorded as 'Christadelphian' for official purposes. Those who have left the Christadelphians, or never joined but largely share their beliefs have also been known to identify themselves as 'Christadelphian'.
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- The removal of the information about size of ecclesia in the UK and Australia was simply because this seemed to be tangental to a general article on the Christadelphian community worldwide. It is also something very difficult to demonstrate statistically, and consequently comments tend to be based on individual experience. The only estimates I have for average ecclesial size are approx. 38 in the UK, and approx. 47 in Australia. RJB
