Talk:Christina Hoff Sommers

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Does America mean United States here? --Steinsky 23:30, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Note to the last editor, who changed "dissident feminist" to "anti-feminist": please re-read Wikipedia's POV statement regarding bias in editing. --Noirdame 22:31, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Sommers and feminism 2 "Masculist" 3 Please read accurately! 4 Political Positions: Another Perspective 5 MediaTransparency 6 NPOVing 7 Antifeminist 8 Time to remove the POV tag?

[edit] Sommers and feminism

Cut from intro sentence:

, best known for her questioning of mainstream feminism; a self-described feminist, many consider her to be anti-feminist. She

If she describes herself as a "feminist" that probably does not need a reference. But if opponents say she's not, I'd like to get the names of one or two of the people who are contradicting her - even explain on what basis they do so. Are we talking about different definitions of feminism here? Uncle Ed 16:03, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

• Should include somewhere that shes libertarian, preferably in the context of an illuminating point.

Almost every female scientist who deals with gender issues these days calls herself feminist. But if you compare her ideas to mainstream feminism you will find they are opposed to them and on the other hand, if you look at anti-feminist masculist ideas you will find a close relationship between their ideas. She works for a conservative think tank whose aim it is to promote ideas of a certain mindset, in this case traditional role models of gender and family. You will find her ideas fit hand in glove with that. Which is opposed to what most feminists want (change in gender rolles - of both sexes - and change in the structure of society, which Hoff Sommers consicers "gynocentric). --BarbD 19:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC) P.S. And you will find she is extremely popular within masculist cirles, and the contrary in most feminist cicles, except the libertarian ifeminists, who are also much closer to masculism than to traditional feminism. So it's not only the names of one or two of the people who are contradicting her...-BarbD 19:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't just call her a masculist without giving citations of people who do so. To draw conclusions on your own isn't appropriate for Wikipedia. Saying that people say it is not an indication that it isn't true, it's just maintaining a position of reporting facts instead of making one's own theories.

It's much more problematic to talk about CHS differing from mainstream/traditional feminism, as she defines these terms differently than you do. To CHS, she is the traditional, mainstream feminist. So if nothing else, it's confusing, in an article about CHS, to speak of "mainstream" or "traditional" feminism in the non-CHS definition. NickelShoe 19:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The main division between contemporary feminism and masculism is the inclusion of women in the Civil Rights Act of '64 (CRA'64), which is legally based on NO SEX DIFFERENCES. Without CRA'64's inclusion of women there would have been no contemporary feminist movement. Us masculists feel it has been a disaster for both men and women, but even more of a disaster for children. We believe there is no legal basis for "mandated sexual equality" because sex differences are so great. Try to make two things equal that are unequal and there's negative consequences for both. Wendy McElroy is definitely a libertarian and as such would want CRA'64 repealed. Sommers is not so clear in that respect and probably could still be considered in the feminist category from a masculist perspective. McElroy could also be included from a feminist perspective because the feminists in this respect reap what they have sowed, and that is intentionally obfuscating the real meaning of contemporary feminism. Both beleive women are equal...whatever that means. user:QIM

Loving the anonymous editor's latest changes. Wish I had figured out how to make it sound that good. I am slightly concerned with the "original goals" comment, because it sounds a little POV, but maybe it's okay or would be fine with a slight rewording. NickelShoe 15:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Masculist"

Hi all -- we need a source for the description of Sommers as "masculist". I have never heard this term used seriously, only pejoratively, let alone in the context of Sommers. Sdedeo 03:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I recall a weird, angry-looking frumpy guy in a skirt who used to come on Phil Donahue's show and bitch about feminists. He called himself a "masculist" and had some kind of Organization for Men. It was during the time when radical feminism was the insanity du jour, maybe 1988 or thereabouts, contemporaneous with much of Sommers' work. I pretty much agreed with his principles but always considered him a few marbles short as well. Doovinator 03:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm, OK. What I am going to do is remove the "masculist" link, but retain the notion that Sommer's "femminist street cred" has been attacked. Sdedeo 03:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC) ... which you have already done. Thanks! Sdedeo 04:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey, great minds think alike! ;-]

"...fools never differ." ;) . We could really do with some sources for the whole femminist street cred thing; if you know of any articles that are like "Sommers is not a femminist", do please add them as inline citations. Sdedeo 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll look around. Might be able to find a couple. Doovinator 04:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please read accurately!

There is no point where I called Sommers a "masculist". I only claimed - which I still think is true - that her ideas are much closer to masculism than to traditional feminism. Maybe I should have kept the word mainstream of feminism. The mainstream of feminism claimes that there has to be a change in gender roles and in the patriarchal structures of society for real equality of men and women. This is exactly what Hoff Sommers attacks. Whereas most masculists claim that a legal and civil equality of man and woman is a just aim and this has been achieved, and that a change in gender roles and of the structure of society is not necessary and asking to much and discriminating against men etc. and that traditional gender roles are perfectly o.k. etc. This is basically what Hoff Sommers says. By the way, there are enough people who are proud to call themselves masculist (I'm not talking about Hoff Sommers), and so it is just a question of your point of view if you find it pejorative or not. --BarbD 17:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is bothering to disagree that she holds masculist ideas (though I don't know if anyone's particularly agreeing either). I believe the point is that you can't just make that assertion on your own without a source. Your own ideas, right or wrong, can't just be put into the article. Without third party sources, it's original research. I also, for the third time (counting equity feminism), object to your use of "mainstream" feminism, and go now to look up where CHS applies this term to herself. Even if she's wrong, in the CHS article it's POV to take sides on the issue, especially when it's not a matter of "fact", since the definitions of words are pretty shaky when it comes to this kind of thing. NickelShoe 17:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Here, page 22 of Who Stole Feminism (cited in the article):

The tradition, classically liberal, humanist feminism that was initiated more than 150 years ago was very different. It had a specific agenda, demanding for women the same rights before the law that men enjoyed. The suffrage had to be won, and the laws regarding property, marriage, divorce, and child custody had to be made equitable. More recently, abortion rights had to be protected. The old mainstream feminism concentrated on legal reforms. In seeking specific and achievable ends, it did not promote a gynocentric stance; self-segregation of women had no part in an agenda that sought equality and equal access for women.

Most American women subscribe philosophically to that older "First Wave" kind of feminism whose main goal is equity, especially in politics and education. A First Wave, "mainstream," or "equity" feminist wants for women what she wants for everyon: fair treatment, without discrimination.

Now I certainly don't advocate that the article use CHS's definitions without qualifying them as her definitions, because clearly they're in dispute. But I think it's important to make it clear in the article that these terms are in dispute. Part of this quote should probably go in this article and/or the one on equity feminism, but I don't have the time right now. But do you see what I'm getting at? I just think we need to represent it as a debate, not as a situation where right and wrong has already been determined. NickelShoe 17:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I've added into the article some explanation of how CHS uses the term mainstream. Hopefully this is a good start, but feel free to address any problems you have with it. I'm pretty sure my citation style is all wrong, too. NickelShoe 17:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I like this new development, NickelShoe. I think it most clealy explains CHS's position without coming off as biased. Raccoon64.12.116.198 04:10, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Political Positions: Another Perspective

Well, Hello All...

I myself have recently edited this page in order to promote greater neutrality on its part. It seems like several of us are on the job, so I'll share my thinking on this subject and part of why I changed what I did.

To start off, I'm a political independent that agrees with some liberal and some conservative ideas. One of the things this has made me more aware of over the years is how terms like "conservative" and "liberal" are not monolithic, at least not for everyone. What I mean is, someone can be in line with conservatives on a particular position and NOT actually be a conservative; furthermore, one can be a certain type of conservative (like an economic conservative, or a foreign-policy conservative) yet not be on the same page with "mainstream" conservatives (perhaps for their social agenda, or whatever).

My point? Let's watch how we talk about people's political positions. It can be trickier than many think. When CHS or anyone else says "I'm a liberal," it's not necessarily that they are lying as part of some big right-wing conspiracy. One can be mainstream liberal and not support "gender feminism" and side with some conservatives that are more vocal in their opposition (due to Democrats' expected silence about one of their voting blocs). Also, last I checked, the organization that CHS is a member of focuses on economic and foreign policy issues, not social ones. It does not necessarily follow, as some above have suggested, that she supports traditional sex roles. Lastly, I think it's important, when identifying an organization pointing out a particular person's bias, to identify the potential bias of the organization itself. Future

references to MediaTransparency should identify it as an organization that tracks CONSERVATIVE funding.

One of the points made in "Who Stole Feminism?" is that "gender feminists" are silencing criticism by accusing their detractors of being sexist/unenlightened/anti-feminist. Whatever they (or anyone else) might say in the realm of propoganda is one thing, but I personally think we need to get away from "all heat, no light" ways of talking about things here at Wikipedia. Rather than accuse CHS of being (OOH, I'm Scared!!!) a conservative, or going out of our way to paint her as one by playing up her connections to conservatives, we should instead point out all sides of the evidence, including what SHE says about HERSELF and what she says about women, which is NOT that they should go back to the kitchen, or that rape isn't a real problem, or anything else one might expect from a true "anti-feminist."

--Raccoon 64.12.116.198 09:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

That's why I object to the first sentence defining CHS as conservative. It over-simplifies the issue, making her sound more like an ideologue than a thinking writer. (She may well be an ideologue, but there are better ways to illustrate it.) So showing why it's (believed to be) the case is, as usual, better than simply saying it is. NickelShoe

[edit] MediaTransparency

I like Raccoon's latest characterization of MediaTransparency better than the last editor's. I'm still not convinced it's a great idea, but much better than simply calling them liberal. The thing about it is, people can simply follow the internal link if they want to know about it. I just don't see how important it is that they focus on conservatives, if their claims are black and white verifiable. NickelShoe 17:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Raccoon's thoughts--

Personally, I'd like to know what other sources of funding she received. In academia, an awful lot of people get funding through a range of sources, sometimes with little or no strings attached. A lot of studies have been funded by liberal and conservative groups, or received the majority of their funding through nonpartisan sources and a few political ones, or received funding from very generous donors without a lot of mandates over what the study had to focus on. I think it's misleading to show only part of the picture, just the conservative sources, and then play it off as a "follow the money game" of conservative influence. It may be that, but not always--judging from MediaTransparency's info, it looks like she got all the funding from the one organization through Clark University, which means it MAY have been a grant given to the University for any of a number of purposes, political or otherwise. What I would really like would be to see a list of everything.

--Raccoon 205.188.116.138 05:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

An anonymous editor claimed MediaTransparency should be identified as "liberal" since the funding organizations were identified as "conservative." I disagree. Here's why. I think we should avoid labels as much as possible in these circumstances. Not labelling MT as liberal doesn't seem to be hiding facts, to me. The article says they track conservative funding. Conservative is a necessary label, because MT apparently focuses on groups they consider conservative. That does make a difference. Labels like that make more of an emotional impression on people than a fact-oriented one.

If someone disagrees, let's talk about it here. NickelShoe 03:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOVing

Hey, I was involved a little earlier in doing some NPOV, and you guys have done a great job. Congrats. I think the article is very well balanced and neutral at this point (but of course could always be expanded.) Sdedeo 22:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Antifeminist

Much thanks to Barb for finding references to disagreement over CHS's status as a feminist. It's important information that the article needed but also very much needed sourced before it could be in there. I haven't checked out the references yet, but I'm very glad for this addition to the article. NickelShoe (Talk) 16:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the page number, I should have done this! --BarbD 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time to remove the POV tag?

It seems most parties agree, so, isn't it time to remove the POV tag? If someone doens't agree, could they please say comment.KarlXII 13:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, since I've had no comments I will remove the POV tag.KarlXII 12:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)