Talk:Circassians

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Israel Portal Circassians is part of the WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles.
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu): edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Copyedit: Yossi Sarid, Havlagah, Palestinian views of the peace process Cleanup: Israel Export Institute, Agricultural Research In Israel, Israel lobby in the United States Expand: Category:Companies of Israel, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, Category:Israeli songs, Port of Haifa, Allon Plan, Israel Antiquities Authority, Secular Jewish culture#Dance, Carmel Winery, Goldstar, List of Egged bus lines, Cellcom, Bezeq, Diamond industry in Israel, Geneva Accord, Zman Tel-Aviv Stubs: Israel stubs Update: National Religious Party NPOV: Israel and the UN, Israeli military action in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Other: update WP Israel banner to include rating scale Translate from Hebrew: Yuval Steinitz, Women in governments of Israel [1] Translate to Hebrew: Gemara, Chief Rabbi, Palestinophilia, David Gans, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, David Bar Hayim, Jacob of Lissa, Nosson Zvi Finkel, Bezalel Ashkenazi, Solomon Schechter, Av Beit Din, Howard Fast, Guardian of Zion Award, Martin Gilbert, Hasbara, Israeli wine, Pierre van Paassen, Uri Davis
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

The ancient inhabitants of Circassia (bordering the Black Sea), renowned for their fair appearance.

The Circassians aren't matriarchal anymore. They used to be, a very long time ago. I will change the article appropriately. Isomorphic 23:35, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have drastically changed the article's focus. Material on the Adyghe has been moved to that article, while this article has been left to deal only with Western perspectives on the Caucasian peoples. That makes the most sense since Circassians is a Western term. Isomorphic 22:38, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

---

Mcx327, the new paragraph is good but I think the information should be in Adyghe. Which meaning of the word "Circassians" are you using: just the Adyghe, all the peoples of the Northwest Caucasus, or all the people of the North Caucasus? Also, where did you get Image:Circassianpic.jpg? Is its copyright status OK for Wikipedia?

Contents 1 Circassians in the Middle East 2 Specificity 3 the circassians are Göktürks? 4 To the user in Damascus 5 Protected 6 Circassian girls: very popular in Ottoman harems 7 Not the name of self-description is disputable in the diaspora 8 Message to Dabqa and others

[edit] Circassians in the Middle East

There are significant Circassian communities in several Middle Eastern countries, including Syria, and they are known there as Circassians (charkasiin) (so it's not just a Western term). Are these the same as the ones dealkt with in the article on the Adyghe? One way or another, it needs to be covered in this article. Palmiro | Talk 14:32, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. I wrote the article using The Circassians: A Handbook by Amjad Jaimoukha. I don't really know anything about the subject other than what I learned there. Isomorphic 03:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Specificity

I am quite certain that "Circassians" can sometimes be used for the Adyghe alone. The reason I'm certain is that Amjad Jaimoukha's book The Circassians: A Handbook is only about the Adyghe. Isomorphic 03:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't really think that's an adequate reason! If you look at the "official Circassians" website now listed at the bottom of the article, you will see some more information which puts me in some doubt about that, though it's still far from clear.

However, talking to Circassians here in Damascus, it appears that they are indeed Adyghe. Palmiro | Talk 12:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't explaining myself fully. The book's introduction talks about all the meanings that "Circassian" has had over the years, and concludes with the explanation that for the purposes of the book, Circassians = Adyghe. I'm not saying that Circassians and Adyghe is the same thing, just that some people use the terms that way.

And on another note, since when do ethnicities have official websites? If you're talking about Circassian World, I woudln't call them particularly credible, considering I just sent them a warning that they're using Wikipedia content without proper attribution on one of their pages. (It's pretty easy for me to tell they're in violation, since I wrote the article they're ripping off...) Isomorphic 02:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I've no idea about that website, but the fact that it includes information that disputes your information made me wonder especially since I understood your remark to mean that the book was only about the Adyghe and therefore the term should only be used to refer to them here. That would be pretty weak reasoning, but it's clear that it wasn;t at all what you meant. Palmiro | Talk 11:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

No problem. Misunderstandings happen. It's only when people don't talk about them that they're a problem. Isomorphic 05:44, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Circassian is a turkish term, derived from the Turkish Cherkess. The term is used in the Middle East because the whole region was under the Ottoman Empire for a long time and local languages absorbed the term. Middle Eastern Circassians are indeed Adyghe and speak the same language as Adyghe, Kabardinians, and Circassians of Caucasus. I know all that because my father is Circassian from Russia, and I am an Israeli citizen and have seen and talked to Circasians in the Middle East and in Caucasus.

[edit] the circassians are Göktürks?

--Malo yu 16:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To the user in Damascus

Can you please offer some explanation why you are deleting these paragraphs? Perhaps we could come to some compromise. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 01:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

CoCoWaWa: can you please ofer some explanation??? —Khoikhoi 00:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

well now that he's registered, if he continues like that with no explanations, it won't be for a long time. Amoruso 00:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, all I'm asking for is some explanation, عضو جديد. Amoruso has provided sources, yet you are deleting them! —Khoikhoi 01:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

I have protected the article due to the edit warring. Please provide arguments for and against inclusion of the Israeli Circassians. The info looks to be referenced. Alex Bakharev 01:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Aparently, CoCoWaWa erased two paragraphs about Circassian on Golan Heights and in Israel, and added these two links:

• Kafkas Vakfi Caucasus Foundation
• Other Caucasus Links

Let him/her have the links in the article, they seem legitimate. Then prtect again the page for a couple weeks to cool him/her down.-Dc76

I think the links just got caught-up in the edit war. I don't think they back-up what he claims, however (that there are no Circassians in Israel). —Khoikhoi 23:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What I mean is, these two links are about Circassians in general. At least they seem. I wouldn't go as far as to call it edit war. It is just one user, and he has not given any reason for erasing. A repeated not nice action is not yet a war. Is it possible to blck user X for page Y, that specifically?--Dc76 16:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm unprotecting the page since no debate has been ongoing for more than two weeks. We have WP:3RR, so if this is really a case of just one user playing nasty, there is no reason to protect the page. If there is a bona fide dispute, negotiate it on talk first. dab (ᛏ) 09:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

looking into the history, it appears evident that the "war" was unilateral disruption on the part of CoCoWaWa (talk • contribs). In such cases, we should warn and block the user, not the article. dab (ᛏ) 09:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I was just afraid to block him because we're sorta in content dispute (even though I've never heard CoCoWaWa speak ONCE). Right after unprotection, he reverted again... Khoikhoi 16:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: attempts to communicate with said user are responded with this. Khoikhoi 16:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Circassian girls: very popular in Ottoman harems

Nobel prize-winning author Orhan Pamuk, in his book "Istanbul", says that his paternal grandmother was Circassian. He adds parenthetically that "Circassian girls, famous for being tall and beautiful, were very popular in Ottoman harems." Source: Orhan Pamuk, Istanbul, Vintage Books, New York, 2006, pg. 12 Byron Dane 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not the name of self-description is disputable in the diaspora

The notion that this is not the name of self-description may apply --if we focus specifically on the three groups that make up this group, as noted early in this article.

Yet, this notion is inaccurate if we look to Circassians in the diaspora, particularly in the Arab world. Am August 10, 2006 article in the "New York Times" discusses the community of Circassians in Jordan, Michael Slackman, "Amman Journal: Seeking Roots Beyond the Nation They Helped Establish." [2] Dogru144 10:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Message to Dabqa and others

Could you, please, explain the reason for your removal of information from this article. You seem to have been done it a couple times. :Dc76 13:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There is something weird going on in this article. Someone is relentlessly trying to erase the exactly same portion of the text. Any clue to the real reason? What is all this about? I read that portion several times, I can't figure out, what is wrong with it, where does someone find a problem there, why not talk about the problem here? Strange. Enlighten us the mortals, please.:Dc76 21:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

We don't know what the problem is, because this person does not appear to speak English. All I know is that he/she lives in Damascus, which would make me assume that they have the POV that the Golan Heights aren't part of Israel, which is probably why he/she is deleting info about Israel in the first place. Khoikhoi 07:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

How about then In Israeli administered Golan Heights... ? I don't know how many countries recognized the annexation of Golan Heights (I guess much fewer than the annexation of Jerusalem), but surely noone doubts who controls the territory. Well, if the person would doubt the later, then there is nothing to talk about. :Dc76 18:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second, Kfar-Kama article shows it is NOT in Golan Heights. How about Reyhaniye? The only possible thing I can think of, is to erase or refrase: These two villages were a part of a greater group of Circassian villages around the Golan Heights. I favour refrazing over erasing, but I don't have a specific proposition.:Dc76 18:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)