Talk:Clay Aiken

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.

Biography Portal

This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments

This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject North Carolina, an effort to create, expand, organize, and improve North Carolina-related articles to a feature-quality standard.

	This article is within the scope of the Idol series WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve and organize Wikipedia's coverage of the Idol series. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments

Clay Aiken was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 21 August 2006

Clay Aiken has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Clay Aiken article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (`~~~~`). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	To-do list for Clay Aiken:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Improvements

Portions of this talk page have been archived. You may wish to look up the previous discussion, as some of it is on issues that have already been resolved.

1 Image Deleted Again
2 Vocal ability
3 Kelly Ripa
4 Tours section?
- 4.1 Proposed new tours section
5 Page protection
6 Fansites allowed?
7 Section Headings
8 2006 Holiday Tour Corrections Needed
9 Inclusion
10 Retraction

[edit] Image Deleted Again

I would have sworn I added Fair Use rational to the image. I did with all the other ones. ~~Where do you find the history for what happened?~~ Nevermind, I found the log. [1] - Maria202 17:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Special:Log appears to be the place where one can search for it. I did some hunting, found this History log for Image:Aiken3.jpg, and it appears that was deleted for reason "I3", which seems to be (from Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Images/Media)

Improper license. Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only", "non-derivative use" or "used with permission" that were uploaded on or after 19 May 2005, and for which no assertion of fair use is provided. [1] This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License".[2] Such images uploaded before 19 May 2005 may also be speedily deleted if they are not used in any articles.

From the history, it looks like the fair use rationale wasn't added. -- ArglebargleIV 17:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, just saw your change. -- ArglebargleIV 17:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's ok. I couldn't find it in the history either. It was a screen shot. This gets tiresome. Thanks. - Maria202 17:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded a new image and this time there is fair use rational. Hope this one sticks. - Maria202 18:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vocal ability

Until someone can come up with a third party source for this, I'm removing it from the article. If a citation can be found we can put it back in. We know he can sing but I've not seen an analysis of his voice other than by fans, and I don't think that counts.

He is registered as a tenor-alto.^{[citation needed]}, and also evinces graceful control in the falsetto range. Aiken has also demonstrated his ability to hold long notes with control, which was evidenced by his rendition of the Neil Sedaka classic Solitaire, which he performed as a contestant on season two and as a guest on season three of American Idol.

Maria202 18:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kelly Ripa

Nothing on the Kelly Ripa thing here yet? 24.124.93.95 04:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)Shannon, 11/25/2006

I'm not saying Kelly Ripa didn't exacerbate the situation or to some extent provoke it. But Aiken, who she doesn't know well like she knows Regis, put his hand over her mouth, and if he hadn't done that, the followup wouldn't have happened either. So Aiken shares in the blame for this incident, and if it deserves mention on the Kelly Ripa page, it deserves mention here also. Once this tempest-in-a-teapot dies down, maybe this sort-of-news item could be removed from both pages. Wahkeenah 02:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But if this sort of trivia is going to be here (rolleyes)- at least it should represent both sides of the issues. 69.19.14.30 03:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It did and it does. The fact that Aiken sent flowers shows that he knows he was in the wrong. Once this becomes a non-event, it could be deleted or trimmed in both pages. Wahkeenah 03:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Except that he sent flowers to Tyra Banks after he interviewed with her 2 weeks before. Just being a gentleman. 69.19.14.30 03:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen don't lay hands on a woman they don't know well. What part of Tyra Banks' body did he touch? Wahkeenah 04:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

He kissed her on the lips. They held hands (as did Kelly and Clay). She held his hand up to her cheek and caressed it. Etc. But that is not the point. The point is that the hand over mouth thing happens A LOT on the R&K show. Simon Cowell did exactly the same thing not long ago. He had also interacted with the audience. Not a word from Ripa. This entire topic is absurd. 69.19.14.29 06:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Clay goofed. Kelly ranted. Rosie butted in. The media had a field day. Clay spoofed. Regis plays cleanup guy. Really not a controversy, just a media picnic making much ado about nothing. As long as any mentions are balanced, I don't care either way. It's been reported that on WRAL TV this morning Clay said he and Kelly spoke and they are cool with each other. Regis said on Extra Kelly does that to him all the time. Do we really want Wikipedia to join in the tabloid journalism? - Maria202 15:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Your summary is better than the multi-paragraph summary in the Kelly (and now Clay) pages. Wahkeenah 15:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Clay's mistake was in getting too comfortable with Kelly. Kelly's mistake was not taking it up with him in private. - Maria202 16:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

YES! That is precisely the point that nearly everyone seems to have overlooked in this age of pushiness and assumed-familiarity. Everybody has made nice with each other now, so this should should go away soon. :) Wahkeenah 18:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be gone from both pages now. Wikipedia is not a tabloid, and this is just fluff stuff. Michigan user 23:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

OK I deleted it from both pages. We will see who objects. Michigan user 23:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I object. - mixvio 17:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The version you keep trying to force in here is blatantly POV and much more wordy than it needs to be. I'm welcome to suggestions IF THEY ARE POSTED HERE, but if you continue to vandalize the article by forcing POV spin on the story I'll be reporting you for violating the 3RR. - mixvio 17:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted back to the version that was here before it was deleted. It is also the version that the folks on the Ripa page agreed on. It is a balanced view of what happened, and various reactions to it. Please get consensus here before you decide ALL BY YOURSELF that your version is more NPOV. I completely disagree with you. 69.19.14.15 19:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Deal with it. Reverted your vandalism. The people on the Ripa page aren't on the Clay Aiken page. - mixvio 19:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Deal with it yourself - reverted your vandalism. This is the version that the people on the CLAY AIKEN page had before it was deleted. It actually shows a side other that just the issues that Mixvio cares about. Your version is POV. You don't get to make a unilateral decision. This version is balanced. Of course the entire thing could be deleted and we would not have to have this issue at all. 69.19.14.15 19:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted your vandalism again. The edit you're trying to force is larger than any other section in the controversy section. It's also twice the size of the edit I'm making. There's no consensus on this except what you want, and you can bugger off. Throwing a bunch of allegedlys around doesn't make it balanced. Stop reverting to vandalize the article or I'll have a moderator step in. - mixvio 19:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Please have a moderator step in because I am really sick of your bullying. 69.19.14.15 19:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The page is protected. You're the only bully here, but what's new. - mixvio 19:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I rather prefer the shorter version; there's no need to puff up the article with so much aside info. But that's just my opinion. You guys need to come to an agreement so the reverting can stop. Why does the anon feel all the extra info is needed when it can be so easily acessed by the given links? --DanielCD 19:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with a shorter version. Just do not leave it so completely POV. The only issue that NEEDS to be left in here is the hyposcrisy issue. That Ripa has done this many times herself, and that Simon Cowell did it to her recently with not a word from her. Feel free to leave out the Rosie part, or the germophobia part, or the flowers part. Just do NOT leave out the entire point of the incident. This was not a gay issue (at least until Rosie butted in), this was not a germophobia issue (at least not until Ripa had to come up with an excuse REAL quick), this was not a politeness issue (or Ripa would not be so quick to do it herself). This was all about Ripa not liking that Clay was getting the limelight. So she tried to upstage him. And she did not like it when he did not take it meekly, so she tried to take him down a peg or two in public. So feel free to shorten what you want. Just NOT the hypocrisy part. 69.19.14.44 01:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a repository for celebrities' various psychological shortcomings. :) I put all pertinent FACTUAL details into the story and I pointed out as unbiased as I can be what happened; for what it's worth I think Rosie O'Donnell's being stupid. But your assertion of "hypocracy" and jealousy is conjecture and not fact. Ergo it's petty and doesn't belong. - mixvio 01:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not be a repository for silly tabloid topics like this either. So why is it here? The FACTUAL details include the fact that Ripa has done this many times. And that Regis has done it to her many times. And that Simon Cowell did it to her recently. The FACT is that many entertainment shows went on and on about the hypocrisy of Ripas comments - they said it, not me. And they said that her comments were "absurd". That is a fact. The hypocrisy paragraph was completely sourced. However you just want to present one side of the issue. Which makes this version totally POV and against Wikipedia Guidelines. Either delete the entire section, or make it balanced. 69.19.14.44 01:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It is balanced. However, if you want to add a reference about other people saying in the media that it's hypocritical, please give me your suggestion. But if you really think we need a breakdown of "On January 15 2006, Kelly Ripa put her hand over Justin Timberlake's mouth; On February 3 2006, Kelly Ripa put her hand over Paula Abdul's mouth; On July 20 2006, Kelly Ripa put her hand over Kanye West's mouth" etc, then that's just absurd. Please present me your suggestion, not more of your bitching. - mixvio 01:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

How about:

On November 17, 2006 Aiken was a stand-in guest host on Live with Regis and Kelly. During an interview Aiken was allegedly frustrated that he wasn't able to ask the questions on his cue cards, and attempted to ask a question but was interrupted by Ripa repeatedly. He then covered her mouth with his hand, which prompted Ripa to respond with "Oh, that's a no-no, I don't know where that hand's been, honey." [2] [3]

Some TV entertainment shows such as The Insider and Entertainment Tonight pointed out what they deemed as hypocrisy in Ripa's statements regarding the incident, since she has put her hand over Philbin's mouth several times on Live, and Simon Cowell did the same thing to her on an earlier show, with no comment from her. Ripa explained on a later show she was afraid of contracting germs during cold and flu season. Ripa may have believed the statements she made, but they were construed by others as "absurd". [4] Rosie O'Donnell on the November 21, 2006 episode of The View likened the outburst to a homophobic remark by Ripa, explaining "if that was a straight man, if that was a cute man, if that was a guy that she, you know, didn't question his sexuality, she would have said a different thing. I was offended by that. I guarantee if that was Mario Lopez she wouldn't have said the same thing." [5]

Aiken later made fun of the controversy on the 2006 American Music Awards that evening with Tori Spelling. [6]

69.19.14.44 02:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd only change this, otherwise I'm fine:

Ripa explained on a later show she was afraid of contracting germs during cold and flu season. Ripa may have believed the statements she made, but they were construed by others as "absurd". [7]

Ripa explained on a later show she was afraid of contracting germs during cold and flu season, but this explanation was construed by others as "absurd". [8]

- mixvio 02:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with that. Sounded kinda clunky anyway. 69.19.14.44 02:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

- My view of your proposed wording : (1) Not that I'm all too fond of admitting it, but I saw several of the entertainment shows' reports on the incident. I don't remember any of them using the word hypocrisy or describing Ripa's remarks as hypocritical. If you're going to say that the shows deemed it as hypocrisy, it's going to need a good reference. (2) "but they were construed by others" are weasel words. From the single reference given, the staff of TMZ.com said it, so say that they said it, not that it was "construed by others". -- ArglebargleIV 02:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

How is this, then?

Some TV entertainment shows such as The Insider and Entertainment Tonight pointed out that she has put her hand over Philbin's mouth several times on Live, and Simon Cowell did the same thing to her on an earlier show, with no comment from her. Ripa explained on a later show she was afraid of contracting germs during cold and flu season, but this explanation was construed by TMZ.com as "absurd". [11] Rosie O'Donnell on the November 21, 2006 episode of The View likened the outburst to a homophobic remark by Ripa, explaining "if that was a straight man, if that was a cute man, if that was a guy that she, you know, didn't question his sexuality, she would have said a different thing. I was offended by that. I guarantee if that was Mario Lopez she wouldn't have said the same thing." [12]

Aiken later made fun of the controversy on the 2006 American Music Awards that evening with Tori Spelling. [13]

- mixvio 02:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That looks OK to me. Need a comma after "Rosie O'Donnell". 69.19.14.44 02:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it's added. - mixvio 02:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We need to fix the refs. They got lost in the editing. 69.19.14.44 03:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think they're okay now; Wikipedia is being a little weird today. - mixvio 03:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Responding to the comment "The people on the Ripa page aren't on the Clay Aiken page," for my part, I have monitored the Ripa, O'Donnell, and Aiken pages. I haven't commented or edited further because the issue seemed to have died down. If there is an improvement on one page which is related to another page, the ethical thing to do is to look at the other page and improve it accordingly. If you know that one page has improved and you don't feel obligated to edit the other one, it is a blatent willingness and bias to ensure one article stays "clean" and another does not. Tinlinkin 13:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Another justification for why the section should have been smaller (and also not lifed word-for-word from the Kelly Ripa page) is that Clay Aiken only had more of a tangential connection to the incident than Ripa. It was Ripa's reaction that generated attention, not Aiken's action. Anyway, at Talk:Kelly Ripa, I propose that the incident should be deleted. Discussion would be held better there. Tinlinkin 14:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Aiken is the prime instigator. He had no business putting his hand on her mouth. Without that, none of the rest of it happens. However, everyone has made nice by now, so it would be fair to trim it from all 3 pages. Wahkeenah 00:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because the story is "over" doesn't mean it should be deleted. It generated a lot of media coverage. I don't think it should be deleted from either page particularly. - mixvio 00:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I mis-stated myself. "Trimmed", as in reduced in verbiage, not necessarily deleted. And it could easily be exactly the same verbiage on all 3 pages, which would be boring but consistent. Wahkeenah 00:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried hard to make the version here now the shortest it can get while still summarizing the story. :p I'm welcome to ideas, otherwise I'd suggest that this be the one copied around; but admittedly I don't really care as long as it's NPOV and documented. - mixvio 01:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Now that I have seen this story, I am convinced that this incident is memorable. Petty in importance but memorable. Therefore I agree with Wahkeenah that the passages should be trimmed to be concise, and perhaps the version in this article now is sufficient. But the verbiage should not be exactly the same on all 3 pages as a matter of editorial style, and I am not going to copy-and-paste what's in this article into Kelly Ripa, nor suggest that that should be done. I compliment the editors who maintain the neutal POV surrounding all of this. Tinlinkin 12:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the entire episode revolves around Aiken it's only fair to add his comments, which I've done. - Maria202 15:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the entire incident from both pages per conversation on Ripa page. It is tabloid news, and old at that. Michigan user 14:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to delete all mention of the incident, as if it never happened. Please shorten it instead. -Will Beback · † · 00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I've restored it but trimmed it to a few sentences. -Will Beback · † · 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it should be deleted either, but the reduction makes it sound even more irrelevant. :) But I don't care, this shit gives me a headache. - mixvio 01:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tours section?

Does it really need to exist? Take Madonna for example: many tours... but her article doesn't have a long list of each and every tour, who she toured with, dates and so on. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fan's guide to every tour. I can understand mentions of each tour in the regular parts of the article... not an entire section just listing tours. And in case someone asks: no, a list article isn't needed in this case either. RobJ1981 02:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are tours less encyclopedic than Albums? They take more work, last longer, and generate more revenue. Many tours are famous and well known. "the Warped tour", The Stripped tour, etc. I don't see why they are not encyclopedic, just because not all articles have that information gathered. Michigan user 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Some information on them can be listed, but the list setup is just clutter. Look at the Madonna article for example. There is no tours section, but the article does talk about tours. Granted: Madonna has tours listed in seperate articles, but in my opinion...that route doesn't need to apply for Clay just yet. I think it's just a matter of talking about the tours, instead of a cluttered lists of bullet points. RobJ1981 20:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree about it looking cluttered. I think that trying to put the information into the paragraphs will clutter up the paragraphs. I am curious as to why you came into this article out of nowhere and added something called a "laundry tag" with no explanations. Is there some sort of Wikipedia guideline we're not aware of or is this just your opinion? As for other articles check out Bon Jovi, which also has a tour section. If we were writing about someone with a 25+ year career, such as Madonna, I'd agree it would be a bit much to list every tour, but were writing about someone with a 3 year career where, at this point in time, touring has been a major part of that career. - Maria202 15:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've decided to take a shot at rewriting the tours section as a series of descriptive paragraphs rather than in list form. It needs references, but I think they can be found. Please see below. -- ArglebargleIV 17:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your revision looks ok. But why? It was less cluttered as a list. I think RobJ1981 was just imposing his aesthetic preference on us. There is no guideline that indicates that the paragraph format is better. 69.19.14.28 18:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure which format I like better, but I'd thought I'd throw it out for discussion. -- ArglebargleIV 20:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think for now we should stay with the list. One more tour and perhaps we can use a shortened list combined with a few paragraphs giving more detailed information. If touring continues to be a major part of his career we can consider using a second page and moving the information there. I've seen this done with other artists. - Maria202 15:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new tours section

Aiken's first national tour was the 2003 American Idols Live! tour, a two month, 40 city arena tour starring Aiken and the other American Idol 2 finalists.

In 2004, Aiken toured on three separate occasions. From February through April, he toured with Kelly Clarkson on the Independent tour, the first tour apart from Idol for both Aiken and Clarkson. The opening act was The Beu Sisters; then each performed half of the concert, alternating between the first and second halves, and closed the concert with a duet of Journey's "Open Arms".

Aiken's first solo tour followed from July through September of 2004, hitting 50 cities. Since the tour did not have an official name, fans dubbed it the "Not A Tour" tour. Disney sponsored the tour as part of their promotional activities for the DVD release of Aladdin, marking their first tour sponsorship. During each concert, a preview video was shown of Aiken's performance of "Proud of Your Boy" (included on the Aladdin DVD), and both the DisneyHand and Bubel-Aiken Foundation charities were featured.

Aiken closed out 2004 with his first holiday concert series, the 28-city "Joyful Noise" tour, sponsored by Ronald McDonald House Charities. Each concert featured a 30 piece orchestra as well as both adult and children's choirs from each host city.

During the summer of 2005, Aiken's Jukebox Tour hit 26 cities in the eastern US as well as Toronto. Each concert was a 2 1/2 hour show including covers of music from each decade from the 50's to the 2000's, as well as current and future releases planned by Aiken. Continuing a trend from previous tours, each of his three backup singers were featured in soloes and spotlight segments.

Aiken's second holiday tour, the Joyful Noise 2005 Tour, was a departure from the previous year's holiday tour. After an opening performance by pop-classical pianist William Joseph, instead of a traditional concert, each show was a series of vignettes threading throughout the musical performances. In each city, a local supporting cast was recruited to supplement the traveling actors, singers, and dancers.

Aiken only toured once during 2006, the Holiday Symphony Tour, an 18-city December tour mostly throughout the eastern U.S., performing with local symphony orchestras.

[edit] Page protection

I protected the page since there seems to be a lot of reverting going on. Please try to work out your differences so the protection can be removed. --DanielCD 19:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Protection has been removed. --DanielCD 13:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fansites allowed?

I thought fansites and MySpace pages weren't supposed to be linked as per WP:EL?Aleta 04:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The MySpace page is an official site. It's my understanding that one fan site per article is ok, and the one listed is a directory of all the sites. The other listed site is a newsletter, not a fan site. - Maria202 18:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section Headings

Singling out one topic for emphasis in the article is completely against the pages and pages of discussion that we had on how to present the topic of the media questioning Clays sexuality, without making it stand out like a beacon to the casual reader. The way the topic was presented in the consensus version - and then when it was repackaged in the controversy section - it was mentioned, and sourced, but not made to stand out any more than any other topic, since according to Clay he is not gay and this borders on libel, and needs to be handled delicately.

Plus in no solution would anyone ever say that you can be "accused" of being gay. Being gay is not a crime. Do you want the gay activitsts all up in arms against Wikipedia. Not a single source has ever used such verbiage. Sheesh.

Please read the pages and pages of archives on this discussion. Do not change the article relating to anything surrounding this topic without consensus from all the editors involved. 66.82.9.83 11:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

66.82.9.83 is correct. Archived discussions surrounding this issue took place and a consensus was reached. Edit waring and creating controversy where none should exist is disruptive. I've filed a notice on the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard and placed a 3RR warning on Hoponpop69's talk page. This needs to stop. - Maria202 13:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 Holiday Tour Corrections Needed

This statement at the end of the second to last paragraph in the 2006: A Thousand Different Ways section needs corrections -

Aiken will take a break from album promotion in December to appear with various local symphony orchestras in their Christmas shows as a replacement for LeAnn Rimes. Album promotion is set to resume with a tour beginning early in 2007.

First, there were only two concerts of the 2006 Christmas tour for which it was publicly confirmed that Clay replaced LeAnn Rimes. There were more news reports (4) of Wynonna Judd replacing Rimes, indicating that Clay's 18-date holiday tour was likely only prompted by the possibility of replacing Rimes for a few dates.

Second, the 2006 tour would be more accurately described similarly to the 2004 tour as featuring a local orchestra rather than as an appearance with local symphony orchestras. As with the 2004 tour, only a minority of the dates were sponsored by local symphony orchestras and not all the shows were supported by symphony orchestras. For most shows, the orchestra was hired to provide an opening set and support Clay and at least two of the hired orchestras were big band, not symphony, orchestras.

Third, I don't think it is accurate to say the holiday tour was a break from album promotion. Clay's involvement in promoting the album may have ended before the holiday tour, as he's done little himself to promote the album since November.

Fourth, although Clay mentioned the possibility of a tour beginning in mid-February, that did not happen. In recent interviews, he's mentioned a possible tour in the summer '07, but nothing is definite at this point. If the tour does occur, it would be arguable whether or not that tour was promoting ATDW. So, for the sake of being strictly accurate, I think it would be best to not characterize such a tour as part of the album promotion.

I suggest the following revisions to the text:

Clive Davis is credited with the cover concept. Promotion for the album has been focused on daytime and late night television appearances. Aiken will take a break from album promotion in December to appear with various local symphony orchestras in their Christmas shows as a replacement for LeAnn Rimes. Album promotion is set to resume with a tour beginning early in 2007.

Aiken's fourth album, All is Well (an EP of four Christmas songs), was released exclusively to Walmart on November 28, 2006.[11]

revised to:

Clive Davis was credited with the cover concept. Promotion for the album was focused on daytime and late night television appearances.

Aiken's fourth album, All is Well (an EP of four Christmas songs), was released exclusively to Walmart on November 28, 2006.[11]

In December 2006, Aiken mounted his third Christmas tour, comprising performances in 18 Midwest and East Coast cities. The tour opened in Waukegan, Illinois on December 1 and ended in Greensboro, North Carolina on December 23. Aiken was supported by local orchestras, which also opened the concerts with a program of seasonal music.

Also revise:

2006: Holiday Symphony Tour
-18-city tour of cities mostly in the eastern U.S. (December 2006)
-Performing with local symphony orchestras.

to:

2006: Holiday Tour
-18-city tour of cities mostly in the eastern U.S. (December 2006)
-Performed with local orchestras, which also opened the concerts with a program of seasonal music

I would normally make these minor revisions to an entry myself, but defer to the usual editors in this case.--Samtha25 21:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think your changes would be a vast improvement. Looks good to me! -- ArglebargleIV 23:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine to me too. Maria202 03:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It's been 3 days and no one else commented so I went ahead and made the suggested changes. - Maria202 17:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion

I have no idea why you say that nowhere in the reference does it say "that". I provided a direct quote. It does say that. 69.19.14.42 01:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the direct quote you quoted in your edit summary :

"It is our goal to create an environment for children where INCLUSION is embraced"

This is the sentence from the article :

"His public philosophy, geared towards inclusion and service to others, is expressed in primarily secular terms."

Those two are not even close to being the same. The quote from the Bubel-Aiken Foundation talks about the goal of the BAF. The sentence from the article purports to describe Aiken's personal philosophy. The BAF quote doesn't mention secularism, and just because the BAF site doesn't mention non-secular activities certainly doesn't mean that Aiken's public philosophy is constrained by that lack of mention.

Something needs to be found that actually talks about Aiken's public philosophy, not the principles behind the BAF.

The sentence from the article is true, in my opinion, but my opinion doesn't count for beans, what matters is references and verifiability, especially when it is a direct comment on someone's personal views, and your reference doesn't support the statement. However, I'm not going to get into a 3RR reversion war anytime soon.

As a personal note : This is a content dispute, I do NOT appreciate being lumped in with the vandals.

Comments, everyone? -- ArglebargleIV 02:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Learning to Sing - Chapter 18, pg 227/228 discussing his faith and philosophy. Paraphrasing, if you ask him about his faith he will answer your questions but says "It's not my job to judge someone; it's not my job to mandate what someone else thinks." He also says that no child is going to have a spiritual crisis on his watch. Your not going to find any secular references regarding his charity because none exist. It's non-secular. Your asking to prove a negative. - Maria202 02:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

So, why don't we just report what he said, then, instead of trying to interpret it? -- ArglebargleIV 02:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the vandalism thing. I did not mean that you were doing the vandalism - there were just all those other edits in between. However, I disagree with you about the edit. The BAF is his public philosophy - it certainly is not private. It was wholely his. No one else put in any input. No person makes a statement that "this, and only this, is going to be my public philosophy". And I have never seen Rolling Stone say that it is a non-religious site, but it is still a non-religious site. The point is that Clay has talked about his religion publically, but his promoting of the concept of inclusion is expressed without religious connections. 69.19.14.42 03:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a second reference. - Maria202 04:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Retraction

As much as I'd like to see this as part of the article we can't use it. Blogs are not valid as citations and Paulus deleted all of his retraction/confession. If he talks to a valid media publication, or if he blogs again and the media picks it up then we can use it. As it stands now, only those who actually saw what he wrote would know about this. - Maria202 15:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The retraction is still there:

At 3/02/2007 3:28 AM, John Paulus said...

I have admitted that this was all a lie and that Clay and I never had sex. What's the problem. Time to move on. Clay has been a victim of a really evil scheme and I know that he is grateful for having such devoted fans who always believed in him. It's over Perc. the Claymates and Clay have both won. I hope they will forgive me for playing along with this ruse as Clay has.

There are also entries that explain the his bills were paid for a year in exchange for doing this, and that "Rick" paid him (I assume that is Rick Campbell, aka Groucho), etc.

And it was already argued on the JP article that if the blog BELONGS to the person in question - then it is valid, because it is their words. So that is different from a blog entry ABOUT someone.

I say, put it back in.

69.19.14.44 15:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

He must have put the blog where he commented back up because after he first said it he deleted it. What's to stop him from deleting it again and making us look like idiots? Maybe we can wait a few days and see what happens. I don't want another huge fight over this and I don't trust the guy not to change his story again. What do the other editors have to say? - Maria202 15:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing here that can't wait a few days to see what settles down. -- ArglebargleIV 16:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/l/a/Talk%7EClay_Aiken_bafd.html"