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Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate is part of WikiProject College football, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to college football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
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Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate is part of WikiProject College Basketball, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to college basketball on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
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This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia Tech. If you would like to help, you can edit this article or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
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Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate is a current good article nominee. If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page.
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[edit] In Defense
At the WikiProject I don't think that we hammered out what rivalry's were rated on the importance scale, but I rated this one a low because it is not that well known outside of Georgia. Bornagain4 17:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Governor's Cup
We need to find an actual picture of this trophy. Supposedly it is exchanged after the Tech-UGA game but I've only actually seen it once in the background a 1999 rebroadcast. If anyone has access to it or can get a good picture, that would be great. Excaliburhorn 13:27, 17-02-07 (UTC)
[edit] History section
The statement about Tech being an independent institution is incorrect (and the cited quote doesn't support the statement either). At the time of its establishment, the Georgia School of Technology was a department of UGA. Granted it was established as a remote department, but a department for certain. Check out Dress Her in White and Gold: A Biography of Georgia Tech by Robert B. Wallace, Jr. (copyright 1963) - the author states exacly that on the second page of the prologue and in subsequent parts of the book (p.16). Harris and Inman initially met with the UGA trustees to "organize the school and elect the faculty." (p.13) This needs to be rewritten in this article and the History of Georgia Tech article, and it would be good to have cited info about when Tech did become a separate institution. All this is very pertinent to the history and bitterness of this rivalry. --Roswell native 21:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- Somehow I doubt that... but next chance I get, I'll have a look at that book. It is certainly possible that UGA, being the primary educational institution in the state, was consulted on certain aspects of the new school, such as organization. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 19:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Disavian, but I would not have even mentioned this without having read it in a book by a Tech alum and former staff member (i.e. Wallace). I have no idea if there have been newer editions of Wallace's book, but I have the one copyrighted in 1963 and published by the Georgia Tech Foundation. So if you find that one the page numbers should be correct.
- In the prologue, Wallace relates a story about finding president Hall's copy of the 1905 Commencement Program with some handwritten notes on it. Wallace then stated "Now this penciled note meant nothing to my history (I didn't need to be reminded at that time Tech was a department of the University of Georgia) but I was by then so immersed in serendipity that I spent the next hour or so running up and down the halls of the Administration Building, showing my prize to anyone I could find."
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- With respect to the current cited statement about Tech being established as an independent institution, the citation is referring to the location of Tech not it's governance - although it is written rather poorly and could be construed otherwise. UGA's agriculture school (referred to in the Mell citation) was established in a similar manner several decades before, but the location was kept in Athens after a very heated battle. The Ag school had similar governance- a separate president that reported into the UGA Board of Regents.--Roswell native 02:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I think it's very possible there may be some inaccuracies in this whole thing. I would like another source before I even consider this statement legitimate. Please refer to 1, 2, 3. I think the history may actually be something along the lines of "part of the University System of Georgia" not actually part of UGA. You'd be surprised how many mistakes there are in modern histories and "accurate" sources. We'll see. I'll search the old stuff in the GT Archives and see if anything surfaces. -Excaliburhorn 23:59 3-14-07 (UTC)
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- Excaliburhorn, I don't think I'll find a more reliable source than Wallace's book - I have a hard time believing a Tech grad would include such a statement in error (multiple times for that matter) in a history of Georgia Tech - in fact, I'll wager this was one of the most researched items in the book. None of the three references you mention contradicts his statement - in fact, all three seem devoid of information about Tech's overall governance. However, as a second source supporting Wallace, you can refer to The University of Georgia: A Bicentennial History: 1785-1985 by Thomas G. Dyer (ISBN 0-8203-2398-5) published in 1985. Granted the author is a UGA professor, but his book supports Wallace's statement. "By the beginning of World War I the state had eight public institutions of higher learning: the University of Georgia, the Georgia institute of Technology, North Georgia College, the State college of Agriculture, the State Normal School, the all-female Georgia Normal and Industrial College, the all-black Georgia State Industrial College, and the medical department of the University of Georgia located at Augusta. All of the Schools operated as branches of the university." (p. 166)
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- Also from the Dyer book, "While Georgia Tech had its own Board of Trustees, the institution legally remained a branch of the university, a position which became increasingly uncomfortable." (p. 167) For this quote, Dyer cites as his source a book by former Tech president M. L. Brittain, The Story of Georgia Tech (Chapel Hill, N.C., 1948) p.45 and Brooks, The University of Georgia, p.233, Appendix 1 "Student Enrollment at the University of Georgia, 1803-1955.
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- At this point, I think the statement "Despite Mell's arguments, the new school was an independent institution." should be moved from the article to this talk page and the same should be done for the History of Georgia Tech.
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- Tech, UGA and the other public institutions had their own Boards of Regents dissolved and the schools were moved under the University System of Georgia and its Board of Regents on January 1st, 1932. Chapter 11 of Wallace's book and Chapter 9 of Dyer's go into detail about the reorg in 1932. Those two chapters (and books for that matter) provide some excellent insight into the relationship between UGA and Tech and the resulting increase in intensity in the rivalry which definitely need to be worked into this article, the History of Tech article and the History of UGA section in the UGA article. --Roswell native 05:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I've clarified that sentence in History of Georgia Tech, have a look. Since you have all of the resources and seem to be knowledgeable on the subject, would you mind writing up something about the infrastructure (and the changes thereof) we've been talking about? History of Georgia Tech touches upon a reorganization in 1931-1932, but I didn't realize how significant it was. Also, if you can cite something in this article, feel free to. I think that the article's greatest weakness at this point is lack of citations. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Lack of citations and lack of sound reasoning behind the sometimes irrational dislike. I think this would be an excellent addition to the article if it is well documented and NPOV. We need to start looking for more information similar to this so outsiders can better understand the intensity and history behind it all. I will definitely get some better citations up in the next few days along with some interesting information. -Excaliburhorn 02:52 3-15-07 (UTC)
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- Disavian, your modification to the History of Georgia Tech sentence looks just right to me. Any objections to modifying the sentence in this article as well? I've been wary of editing the History of Tech article because anyone looking at my editing history will likely assume that I'm trying to add my POV, and I didn't want to have a lengthy discussion about my intentions. I'll see what I can come up with, but it might be a while in the making. If you can access either of the sources above, I'd recommend them both. Interesting and very illuminating to the acrimony behind the rivalry. I've certainly learned a lot in reading about this. This whole topic has a wealth of interesting and informative angles about the history of post-secondary public institutions in Georgia and the politics that created them.--Roswell native 02:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I copied over the change. As for POV- you have the books and the knowledge, so as long as what you add is well-referenced, I won't have a problem with it. Although, it looks like we ended up having a lengthy discussion anyway. :) If you like, you could start by expanding the history on this article, and relevant parts could be copied over to the respective school histories and the somewhat stubby Georgia Board of Regents article. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 03:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I saw a copy of one of the first degrees from Tech. The title was The University of Georgia, Georgia School of Technology. It's hanging in the mezzanine of the Alumni House. I need to get a picture of it. -Excaliburhorn 20:22 3-19-07 (UTC)
[edit] Coaching Matchups
Do we want to keep the table to just the three primary sports, or expand it to include Tennis, Volleyball, etc? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Remaining needed citations
The following things still need to be referenced:
- The UGA Chapel Bell being stolen
Not done
- Students saying "To Hell With Georgia Tech" at the end of UGA's fight song, "Glory, Glory."
Done
- Another source about the first football game, Done especially one that confirms the team names
- Something that confirms the following quote from the AJC; Done the actual article would be best:
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The next day in the Atlanta Journal, an Athens journalist accused Tech of using "a heterogeneous collection of Atlanta residents - a United States Army surgeon, a medical student, a lawyer, and an insurance agent among them, with here and there a student of Georgia's School of Technology thrown in to give the mixture a Technological flavor." Hence, the sports rivalry was born. |
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That's the big stuff. If we can get those knocked out, I'd say that it's more or less between B and GA-class. It could still use improvement, of course, but it's looking great. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- Another source about the first football game, especially one that confirms the team names
- I am somewhat certain the Wildcats reference to Georgia's team is not correct - I have seen that nickname mentioned as one for the basketball team for a short time in the 1920s, but I can't remember where I read it to be honest.--Roswell native 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could remove their team name from the article until we're sure one way or the other. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- Something that confirms the following quote from the AJC; the actual article would be best:
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The next day in the Atlanta Journal, an Athens journalist accused Tech of using "a heterogeneous collection of Atlanta residents - a United States Army surgeon, a medical student, a lawyer, and an insurance agent among them, with here and there a student of Georgia's School of Technology thrown in to give the mixture a Technological flavor." Hence, the sports rivalry was born. |
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- I added this quote - it came from the Stegeman book in the existing refs. i have added as an inline citation. It would be nice to get it directly from the AJC article though, but I don't have easy access to a library that would have a copy.--Roswell native 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- The book citation is good enough for our purposes, I think. It'd be an impressive find to get a copy of the AJC article, though. Thanks for adding those :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
