Talk:Clone Wars (Star Wars)

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Contents 1 Name origin 2 Disapearing fleets 3 Initial EU info 4 Rebellion on Kamino? 5 Books 6 Intergalactic? 7 Moved 8 Page move 9 Improvement 10 Merge 11 Contradiction? 12 Vote 13 Meeting on Vjun 14 wow 15 Clone War items? 16 Major clean-up / edit: Feedback wanted! 17 Original research 18 Clean up! 19 GA promotion 20 Military infobox 21 Size of the armies?

[edit] Name origin

Although the title of this war was derived from the Republic Grand Army of Clone troopers, the main enemy was the Confederate Separatists. --John V

[edit] Disapearing fleets

I have a question about the battles: in the game "Rebel Assault 2, the Hidden Empire" there is reference about a battle in the Dreighton Triangle, were both Separatists and Clones fleet dissapeared in the middle of the battle. Is there any info aobut this? --Messhermit 05:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be a horrible anachronism since RA2 came out in, I think, 1996? --Maru (talk) Contribs 04:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I've made a new page of the Battle of the Dreighton Triangle. Acess it here or the guessed date of month 12. --Bly1993 7 Nov 2005

[edit] Initial EU info

There was a pre-Attack of the Clones overview about the Clone Wars on a Star Wars fansite:

"The Clone Wars was a war between the Republic and the armies of the Clone Masters and it ended with cloning technology being eradicated."

This pre-Attack of the Clones overview about the Clone Wars is not part of the Star Wars storyline! Since the full overview about the Clone Wars wasn't mentioned in the original trilogy, how did George Lucas come up with a full overview about the Clone Wars? --UnknownJohn 00:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rebellion on Kamino?

"Rebellion on Kamino- the Prime Minister of Tipoca City, Lama Su, started to create next-generation Clone troopers to help the Rebel Alliance fight against the Galactic Empire."

Does anyone know the source for this info? It seems rather dubious to me. --Angel Blue 451 16:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe that is from the video game Star Wars: Battlefront II. --The Wookieepedian 02:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep, its from Battlefront II, along with the Battle of Mustafar. I'm the one who made the page. I'll update it with more info. Bly1993 31 October

Ah, just wondering. Thanks. Angel Blue 451 21:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I had thought that this information was from the dark horse comic series? was i mistaken?

[edit] Books

Shouldn't this article list the books which mentioned the Clone Wars as well? (example: The Thrawn Trilogy). --The Wookieepedian 09:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd say list them in a section to themselves, along with a delineation of what the EU held the Clone Wars to be before Lucas came out with his prequels. For this, you'd use Zahn's two Thrawn trilogies, I, Jedi, the two Han Solo trilogies I believe mention the Clone Wars... and I'm not sure what else substantially mentions them, offhand. --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intergalactic?

Shouldn't it say that it was a series of intragalactic, that is within the galaxy, as distinguished from between galaxies? --Aerodotus 22:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It is a common spelling mistake. I'll fix it. (The only contact documented that the people of the SW ever had with another galaxy was with the Yuuzhan Vong.) The Wookieepedian 22:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well... Technically there were to the best of my knowledge, three contacts. First was Waru on Crseih Station (see the Hethrir article), then there were the inhabitants of "Otherspace", the Charon [1] (referenced in the second edition of "A Guide to the Star Wars Universe", sourcing West End Games' Otherspace and Otherspace II: Invasion), and finally as you pointed out, the Yuuzhan Vong. There have been suggestions that the "Other and the Rest" that spawned Vuffi Raa (Lando Calrissian's droid in the eponymous Adventures trilogy) might be of extra-galactic origins, but that's just speculation. Needless to say, I'm not counting the Ssi-Ruuk. --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moved

Why was this page moved from Clone Wars to The Clone Wars? – Mipadi 20:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because that is what they are usually referred to, instead of "Clone Wars." The Wookieepedian 20:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In articles? This means every link is going to have to be either piped, or look like The Clone Wars or the Clone Wars; normally, only Clone Wars is linked, like that. – Mipadi 22:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I moved the page a while back, and since then, I've changed every link I run across to this article to say "Clone Wars," with it actually linking to "The Clone Wars." If you see any redirects, fix those as well. The Wookieepedian 22:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I mean to say that anyone creating new articles or adding a link are most likely going to link to Clone Wars (because that's most natural), not The Clone Wars. The move doesn't make a lot of sense, as Clone Wars wasn't interfering with another page. I'm of the opinion it should be moved back. – Mipadi 23:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It really should be at Clone Wars, according to the naming conventions. – Mipadi 17:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I propose that this article be moved to Clone Wars, as per the naming conventions. I'd do it myself, but a redirect appears at Clone Wars, and I'd like to maintain this article's history, if possible. – Mipadi 17:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Jonathunder 19:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement

After reading through this article, I think that it is badly in need of some improvement. It's become a tangled morass of material that is mostly either too detailed or irrelevant. This is a problem because that means that the good material is hard to find. I have a few ideas on how to best improve this page that I am going to try to implement. (Since it is a big edit, I'm going to work on it here for the time being.)

1. Ditch the listed timeline. Most of this article is simply a list of "significant" battles that are then linked to. The thing is, most of these battles probably aren't that important. Even though I am a huge Star Wars fan, I am of the opinion that battles that are not covered in the movies or significant works of fiction do no not warrant their own article. The problem with a lot of Star Wars articles on Wikipedia is that they're all over the place. Remember that Wikipedia is not just about Star Wars. Would a casual reader searching for information on a battle of the Clone Wars search for that specific battle, or just go to the Clone Wars article? Probably the latter. Furthermore, is the typical user, or even a huge Star Wars fan such as myself, interested in the exact casualty counts of tiny battles, especially ones that only appeared in a single video game, comic book, or novel? Probably not—they'd just want a brief overview.

A quick analysis of the Clone Wars article shows that, in terms of listing battles, it is even more in-depth than a page such as American Revolution or American Civil War—yet it still contains even less good information than those articles. That's why I propose rewriting this article in a style similar to that of other "war" articles such as American Revolution or American Civil War. Rather than just giving a list of battles, give a brief overview of the major events of the Clone Wars, as well as information on the build-up, political ramifications, and so forth. Much of the important information from the smaller "Clone Wars battles" articles can be implemented here, in one spot. Major battles, of course, could still have a separate article with a link (again, see American Revolution, American Civil War, World War II, and similar pages for models). Not only would the information be more easily synthesized, but we'd get rid of the non-encyclopedic fancruft as well, and make the article into more of an encyclopedic style.

2. Ditch the irrelevant information. How many users actually need a list of all the works that reference the Clone Wars? If a specific quote is used or paraphrased, it's certainly a great idea to reference it; but a list of all the works that mention the Clone Wars is neither necessary nor encyclopedic.

Those are a few ideas I have as of now. My goal in recent weeks has been to clean up the Star Wars articles on Wikipedia to read more like encyclopedia entries. There's a lot of good information here, but a lot of users tend to go overboard with fancruft. I think it's a good idea to get rid of the irrelevant information in order to make such articles more readable and encyclopedic. Basically, keep good information that most users are looking for in; get rid of the trivial or unimportant information that no one really comes to Wikipedia to find. Finally, actually cite sources and make these articles more encyclopedic, even though they are purely fiction. – Mipadi 20:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I am currently working on a rough draft of this article, incorporating the improvements I listed above. The new article will incorporate much of the information from the smaller stub articles about various battles, with those pages then being redirected here. I am also dispensing with the timeline formatting and writing the chronology of events as a sort of history text, with actual description and information included right in the article. Major battles will still have their own articles, if necessary—although, since most of the articles seem to be battles based on videogames that largely have superfluous information, the number of independent articles will be vastly decreased.

Please check out the rough draft and leave comments for its improvement. Thanks a lot. – Mipadi 21:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I think, especially with WP:FICT looming, that we merge all clone wars battle miniarticles into a list. We won't be deleting meaningful content, but it'll keep things organized. Some of the larger battles (I'd say ten percent of the total amount of battles) could have their own articles, but I really think this will benefit Wikipedia. Deckiller 01:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. See my note in Improvement, above, for more details. — Mipadi 14:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction?

Is it just me or is this a big contradiction?

All the way through the three-year war, the Clone Troopers were withstanding a huge Battle Droid siege. Almost every battle during the Clone Wars was a Seperatist offensive, and while the Republic was able to beat serious threats off, they often served as diversions so that the Confederacy could conquer worlds elsewhere.

Then, two sections later...

Also, the nature of the Clone Wars was similar to that of the American Civil War. The CIS fought a defensive war for the most part, as did the CSA.

Is it possible to fight a defensive war by making offensive movements every which way? --Shadarian 22:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed that sentence and the preceding one, as I believe the fiction clearly shows the CIS as being the aggressor in the majority of battles. --BinaryTed 21:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Leaving aside the theoretical military strategy discussions, my perception was that the CIS was initially on hte offensive, but as the Republic geared up and the Outer rim sieges got under way, the CIS was pushed back on to the defensive, with the Battle of Coruscant akin to Gettysburg= the furthest the Confederates ever got, after which they never really did much offensive actions at all. --maru (talk) contribs 22:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Part of the problem with that analogy is that the CSA lasted for two more years after the "high water mark" at Gettysburg. How quickly did the Clone Wars end after the Battle of Coruscant? If my timeline is correct it's a matter of two weeks (or less), and the war had been going on for nearly 36 months by that point. Personally I think this particular angle is speculative enough that it doesn't really have a place in the article, especially because we can't even agree if there's a similarity, let alone an intentional one. --BinaryTed 00:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Truthfully, the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of the Purge's timelines are rather screwed up. An example would be- Mustafar is in the Outer Rim. It should take days or weeks to get there, but we see the Yoda/Palpatine, Obi-Wan/Anakin duels take place simultaneously. This is all well and good, except for the problem that Palpatine then leaves for Mustafar and apparently rescues Anakin mere minutes or hours later. Obviously, Anakin didn't roll around on the burning rocks and lava for the days or weeks he should have if Palpatine left during or at then end of the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel. And so on. The thing that convinces me the most is Dooku's resemblance to Lee- I can't think the facial hair was an accident. --maru (talk) contribs 02:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

We should have a vote so users can know how to edit this article properly knowing that majority supports them. Here are some things you can vote for. You can vote for as many section as you want unless you contradicting yourself.

Article is perfectly fine, just needs expansion and minor work:

• The article needs an overview of the course of the war, followed by the list. The list of references should be converted into footnotes, and all the above material cited better. The satellite battle articles could, of course, stand major improvement. --maru (talk) contribs 00:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

---
Transfer list of battles and their description to its own article:
Replace this with your vote for above
---
Get rid of the list completely or create a small list:
Replace this with your vote for above
---
List should only have known battles. Not game/minor EU battles
Replace this with your vote for above
---
If you want to add your own section perfectly fine with me. Tutmosis 21:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meeting on Vjun

Above needs editing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scorpiusdiamond (talk • contribs).

[edit] wow

i thought this was something lucas made up -- where did you all get this info??????? --Ghetteaux 16:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

well my friend there is a little thing called the expanded universe, and it is vast, yeha it was create by lucus but then it grew all on its own with the help of devoted fans and crazed fanatics--Manwithbrisk 23:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clone War items?

why is Katarn-class commando armour listed here instead of on the clone commando page? or conversely why isn't any other technology from the clone wars listed here? it just seems out of place can we clean this up? or add to the section--gooseneck 23:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major clean-up / edit: Feedback wanted!

For the past few months, I have been toiling to clean up this article, for a number of reasons. I was first inspired by the format of the article. The timeline is just a bad idea, very unprofessional, and rather useless. My initial idea was to rewrite it by merging all the small articles into this one, and writing the storyline as a sort of narrative. However, inspired by recent efforts in Jabba the Hutt, I've tried to edit the article to give a more "real-world" feel, while relying heavily on the Wookieepedia article for the strickly '"Star Wars stuff.

My idea is to dispense with the small battle articles by merging them into the relevant videogame, novel, or comic book article, and utilize the efforts of Wookieepedia by linking to items there, rather than just copying data. To that end, I have released a draft of the article which I hope to implement. It still needs a good deal of work, but I think it's a good replacement for the one we currently have.

The article can be read and commented on at the following locations:

• Clone Wars (article)
• Discussion

– Mipadi 19:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree with the above. For the last couple of months, I've managed to merge several of the battles without issues, so I think we can expand and do this fullscale without too much trouble. Glad to see you on board as well, Mipadi. — Deckiller 08:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

We're going to have to be careful to make sure original research does not creep into the Historial parallels section. – Mipadi 19:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

We also need to do something about those battle articles. Most of the clone war battles have been merged; about 80 percent of those left are summaries of the climax of a random clone wars cartoon episode. My idea was to compress the data and put it in a plot synopsis on the main cartoon page per WP:FICT, or have articles for each episode. — Deckiller 20:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd advocate merging the small battle articles into the relevant media article, i.e. small battle articles from the Clone Wars microseries can go in that article, small battle articles from Star Wars: Battlefront II can go into that article, and so forth. – Mipadi 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up!

Let's clean this article up! I'd like to eventually submit it to peer review, once it seems to at least be approaching such quality. – Mipadi 20:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA promotion

I promoted this article to GA status. I think it is a good article. My only comment is that the once-sentece paragraph of the lead be expanded or deleted. Also, there is a paragraph in military section without a reference (I'm not sure about Count Dooku's beard, either). Dmoon1 05:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military infobox

I'm a little concerned about putting an in universe military infobox for this article, since it's from an out of universe perspective (hence the GA status), so it may not fit with the goal of this page. I know many of the others have it, but they are not yet from an out of universe perspective. — Deckiller 19:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. It makes the fictional element too ambiguous; I'd suggest removing it. – Mipadi 20:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Couldn't the same be said about a character box, such as the one on Jabba the Hutt? The Wookieepedian 04:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. I see no need for an infobox there, either.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that infoboxes are overused on Wikipedia. – Mipadi 06:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Size of the armies?

Does anyone know size of the armies? How many clone troopers did the Empire have and how many droids did the other side have? --Svetovid 23:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)