Talk:College admissions

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Removed this section:

"A 2005 Princeton study showed Asians (not whites) bear nearly 80% of the cost of affirmative action in college admissions. Nearly four out of every five spots given to blacks and Hispanics in an affirmative-action regime would go to Asians in a purely merit-based system. [1]

The cost or benefit of college affirmative action in terms of SAT points (on 1600-point scale) is as follows: [2]

• Blacks: +230
• Hispanics: +185
• Asians: −50
• Recruited Athletes: +200
• "Legacies" (children of alumni): +160

"

Using one study to make a bold conclusion plus the bold text present an agenda. Any in-depth discussion of affirmative action, which doesn't appear in this article must be more balanced.

lots of issues | leave me a message 09:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Lotsofissues. You removed the sentence "The process is entirely decentralized." Could you explain why? In the US, unlike many other countries, there is no one organization or standard procedure that determines where a student will be accepted. You may get into Harvard but not Yale, U Mass but not U Connecticut. Each institution has its own criteria. It used to be the case that there were some "gentleman's agreements" about scholarships and perhaps even admissions, but they have been ruled illegal (as antitrust violations) by the courts. Yes, there are standard tests (SAT etc.), but each college gives them a different weight and (again, unlike some other systems) it is perfectly possible for one student to score higher than another yet not get into the same college. So in what way is the system centralized? --Macrakis 23:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Macrakis,

I define centralized admissions by application procedures. If all universities submitted to one common app such as the UCAS then the process is centralized. Although there is greater independence in the US, 300 private universities use the common app and most state systems use a single application. lots of issues | leave me a message 01:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The common application form is just that: a form. It is a convenient way of submitting standard information. Individual institutions can and do evaluate the information on it however they want. And for that matter it may well be a good idea to write a different essay for different colleges, even using a standard form. Moreover, though 277 colleges (including many prestigious ones) is a lot, that is still < 10% of all US colleges. Within a state system, I agree, things are often centralized, and there is a clear hierarchy such that (e.g.) SAT score 1200 gets you into the University of Centralia, SAT score 1000 gets you into Centralia State College, and SAT score 800 gets you into Centralia Community College. But that's within a state. All the above information is worth mentioning in the article, but the US system remains extremely decentralized compared to most other systems in the world. --Macrakis 15:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)\\

I removed this line: There is no standard hierarchy of 'difficulty' or 'prestige', so one student may be admitted to college A but not college B, yet another student may be admitted to B but not A.

I felt the statement that students may not be admitted to all choices was too obvious to be worth mentioning.

On another note, if you count trade colleges, CCs, etc. there are a few thousand colleges in the US but there are only about 700-800 4 year colleges and universities in the country. lots of issues | leave me a message 07:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 non-US college admissions 2 stress and such 3 Information about different types of university 4 US-centric title 5 Tasmania 6 expand scope 7 Yield protection 8 Brazil 9 article has gone to crap 10 Title 11 Article location

[edit] non-US college admissions

This is an extremely American-centered article. Does anyone reading this article know anything about college admissions elsewhere in the world? Rhesusman 16:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree entirely. I would be delighted if someone who knows about other systems could add information on them. --Macrakis 19:23, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone think it would be appropriate to A) flag this article as being in need of attention because it's American-centered? or B) to change the title to College admissions in the United States? Rhesusman 21:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

The entire English Wikipedia is heavily US-oriented and to a lesser extent UK-oriented. I am not sure it is useful to add the "in need of attention" template to all those articles; we just need to recruit more editors from outside the US and the UK to work on the Wikipedia. For this particular article, there is some content in the article University that really belongs here rather than there. If in the end the article becomes unwieldy, it should be split into College Admissions in the US, ...in the UK and the Commonwealth, ... in Germanic Europe, in France and its former dependencies, etc. But I suspect that there are only a few really distinct systems in operation: the US-style system, the open admissions system, the high school results system, and the exam system. --Macrakis 21:45, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I added some information and links for Australia, and created a redirect from University admission. Cheers. Natgoo 23:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] stress and such

As a senior in the midst of the college application process, this article reads as a very dry presentation of things. Although I am biased by virtue of being in the middle of this mess, I would like to see some discussion on the stress of college apps for seniors and so forth. Evanbro 01:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

If you would like to write this up, please go ahead. Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and should report on accepted objective evidence, not subjective impressions. For example, it might be appropriate to summarize an article in the press on college admissions stress in the US, or comparing it to stress in other countries. --Macrakis 14:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Information about different types of university

The information below is very interesting, but there are some problems with it:

1. It doesn't belong in the "College admissions" article, which is specifically about, um, admissions. Perhaps it belongs in an article about higher education systems.
2. It is written as advice, not as encyclopedic information, e.g. "applicants should weigh carefully".

In the United States, students have the choice of applying to over 2,800 four year colleges and universities, as well as many two year institutions. In deciding which schools to apply to, students need to take a variety of factors into account, including their individual grades and test scores, the subject they plan to study, and the type of institution where they believe they will be best served. Students can choose from research universities, liberal arts colleges and master's level universities.

Research universities are institutions that are primarily focused on research and preparing graduate and doctoral students. They also offer undergraduate education. Examples of research universities include the University of California at Berkeley, Columbia University, and Harvard. Liberal arts colleges, on the other hand, only provide undergraduate education. Contrary to what many believe, liberal arts colleges do not only offer programs in the arts or humanities; they also offer a full slate of science programs. Typically, however, they do not offer degrees in engineering, business, or other specialized professional programs. Examples of liberal arts colleges include Williams College, Beloit College, and Dickinson College. Master's level universities offer both undergraduate education and some graduate level programs. They also frequently offer professional undergraduate majors such as engineering, business and other specialized professional programs. Examples of Master's level universities include Southern Methodist University, San Diego State University, and Villanova University.

Each of the three types of schools have advantages and disadvantages that applicants should weigh carefully. While research universities do often offer access to cutting edge research facilities, they also tend to be larger schools. Often, classes are taught by graduate teaching assistants rather than full professors. Liberal arts colleges, on the other hand, tend to be smaller schools and are often located outside of metropolitan areas. However, even students at liberal arts colleges have many opportunities to engage in research and they are usually taught by full profesors, not teaching assistants. Master's level universities are often a mix of both the advantages and disadvantages of research universities and liberal arts colleges. Of course, there is also a wide variety of institutions within each category.

It's certainly valuable material, but I'd recommend it be put in more appropriate parts of the WP. --Macrakis 02:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] US-centric title

While I'd support having a college admissions in the United States article, if this really is meant to be a global article, it should be at university admissions, as "college" is a largely American term, whereas university is global. Ambi 03:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

not all American undergraduate institutions are universities (also offering graduate degrees). how about the all inclusive college and university admissions? --Jiang 05:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

That works. Ambi 05:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tasmania

I corrected the Tasmanian section to make clear that Tasmanian students apply through the admissions centre corresponding to the institution they are applying for, rather than VTAC, but that doesn't really need to be stated there as it applies to most interstate (school leaver) applications. What is the source for the comment about interstate students appalying to UTas? VTAC lists UTas as one of its institutions, but the UTas admissions guide doesn't say anything about applying through VTAC. JPD (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Interstate students can apply through VTAC or directly to UTas, according to the UTas page 'How to Qualify'. I've edited to clarify. Thanks for picking up the error re: Tassie students applying for mainland uni's solely through VTAC - the info I have is from a Victorian source and I didn't double check. Natgoo 23:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] expand scope

I think this article should be expanded to education admission in general. In other countries other than the US, or even in the US itself, schools at the primary level may also have an admission system based on aptitude tests etc. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 22:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yield protection

I removed this passage from the end of the Yield Protection section:

In truth, virtually all elite undergraduate institutions use methods of yield maximization, and consider a student's likelihood of attending foremost in their admissions decisions.

Unless someone can provide a verifiable reference for this, I don't think this kind of speculation has a place in Wikipedia. Starwiz 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

I've added a section on admission to Brazilian universities. Please feel free to correct/expand it. 161.24.19.82 13:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article has gone to crap

It is impossible to have a different section on college (aka university) admissions requirements for every country in the world and still end up with a useful article. We can either 1) split everything by country into individual pages (ie into the individual "Education in ..." articles) or 2) elaborate on some general themes (American vs. British traditions). The term "college admissions" is really an American one, so most of the content here can be removed. --Jiang 07:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, it's the problem of having English as the dominant language of the planet, not a problem of this article. I fully support elaborating more on some general themes, but these should perhaps be more like: American, European, Chinese etc. traditions. Britain does not represent the Continent very well, after all, and Wikipedia is about the world, not about Anglo-Saxon countries. --MPorciusCato 12:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This is very hard to do and I'm just not sure how to go about doing it. Suggestions? The problem is that everytime we enter a new country, the rules are quickly changed, so any sort of detail is hard to work out. The term "College admissions" isnt really used outside the united states. --Jiang 07:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

The title of this article should be changed from "College Admissions" to "Admission to Higher Learning Institutions" or, better still, "Tertiary Education Admission". The problem with the current title is that the use of the term "college" as synonym for a degree-granting post-secondary educational establishment is really specific to American English. For differents meanings of "college" in other English-speaking countries, especially the UK, see the Wikipedia article on College. 200.177.7.254 13:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article location

This keeps coming up but not proceeding far. Can I suggest College and university admissions, in line with Category:Colleges and universities? If there's no objection, I'll move it after 48 hours. Category:College admissions will also need renaming. Timrollpickering 23:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually "Universities and colleges" seems the more common form, though there's a wide mixture. I've just made a mega nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 December 30#Colleges and universities and I'd recommend then renaming this article in line with whatever form is adopted. Timrollpickering 03:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)