Talk:Conscription in Greece

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Contents 1 Devil's Advocacy for Two Sections 1.1 Attitude towards conscription and conscriptees (draftees) 1.2 National Guard 2 Trivia 3 Financial Reprecussions 4 Clean-up

[edit] Devil's Advocacy for Two Sections

[edit] Attitude towards conscription and conscriptees (draftees)

Conscription in Greece is considered by the draftees as waste of time, since no real training takes place after bootcamp, but most feel that it's a "necessary evil", since it can't be avoided without suffering serious repercussions. Most also feel that conscription in Greece is an attempt by the Greek Armed Forces to secure a presence and say in the political life in Greece.

Do we have any sources for these opinions? Based on my (admittedly, rather limited) travels in Greece, I would say that the paragraph does reflect the feeling of a majority of young urban men that I talked to. Still, what's the proof? I can tell you that I talked to a guy smoking a cigarette waiting for the Metro at Syntagma, but that doesn't let us say most. Are there any surveys we can cite here? There must be somewhere. Find them and cite them. Don't be lazy.

I agree that the first part of the paragraph reflects the opinion of a lot of young urban men, but not necessarily most of them. The second part of the paragraph reflects the author's opinion; it is certainly not the opinion of most (first time I have heard of it myself). --Skopiestelos 5 July 2005 12:40 (UTC)

[edit] National Guard

In 1998, the Greek Parliament voted law 2641 which mandated enrollment of Greek men and women between 18 and 60 years of age into a National Guard (Ethniki Froura). The Guard would respond to enemy action, natural disasters and all sorts of emergencies, but the law was never enforced.

Didn't they have an Ethniki Froura before World War II? On Crete, the militia and even unorganized bands of civilians fared well at first. But the Germans eventually won, and extracted a terrible revenge on the civilian population that had resisted them.

The Ethniki Froura was officially established in 1945, as one of the three components of the Army (the other two being the Active Army and the Reserve). It has been in existance ever since. The law in question, merely restructured the Guard and adjusted some of the regulations to modern times. The information in this section (and much of the article) is factually incorrect and apparently motivated by a transparent agenda.

Everywhere on the island, Cretan civilians, armed and otherwise, joined the battle with a savagery unexpected by either side. In one notable incident, an elderly Cretan beat a German parachutist to death with his walking stick. This was not an isolated case, and many Germans met their end by knife or club in the Cretan olive groves and villages. Once they had overcome their shock at such unprecedented resistance from a civilian population, the Germans reacted with equal ferocity. -From the Battle of Crete article.

We should discuss the possible upsides and downsides of sparing unwilling 20 year olds but accepting angry old men with canes. Surely this was discussed in the Vouli and in the press. What have they been saying?--Jpbrenna 30 June 2005 04:30 (UTC)

My only problem is with the sentence: "Most also feel that conscription in Greece is an attempt by the Greek Armed Forces to secure a presence and say in the political life in Greece."

Mandatory conscription is regulated by laws decided by parliament, not the armed forces which must obey civilian authority. Military rule in Greece ended 31 years ago.--Theathenae 30 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)

Law 2641/1998 is available here. --Skopiestelos 5 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)

Why is that picture there of the guy holding his rifle backwards? It doesn't mean they are not professional. There are many pictures of US forces doing stuff like that and they don't have conscription.

Yes, even professional soldiers goof-off occasionally. I didn't add the picture, if I recall correctly, but I did add a caption to give it context. A standard argument in support of all-volunteer militaries is that volunteers are better-motivated and more professional. That argument isn't specifically advanced here, and I can't remember if it was when I posted the picture. So, if you think it is inappropriate, I have no ideas to taking it down - but George (the lovable buffoon in the photo) might. --Jpbrenna 17:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Non-Greek European Union citizens have the right of unlimited permanent residency and employment in Greece without the obligation of conscription.

So what? All over the world military service obligation only applies to citizens, not to residents. I think this statement should be deleted. --Skopiestelos 17:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. IMO, the article should focus on those who serve, rather than the various minorities who do not. TheArchon 21:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The Greek Constitution states that all citizens have equal rights and obligations and that all citizens capable of bearing arms must contribute to the defense of the country. Greek conscription law [1] though, only applies to male citizens.

Two things here: (a) the Greek Constitution (article 4) states that 'all citizens capable of bearing arms must contribute to the defense of the country as provided by law (italics added). This means that there is no constitutional obligation for women to serve, or any mismatch between the contitution and the law. (b) when this article was first formulated (1975, although it has survived several constitutional reforms), it was considered that women were not generally capable of bearing arms: therefore it was not the framer's intent to exclude women from conscription.

[edit] Financial Reprecussions

I am not sure why the statement "most employers in Greece dislike hiring men over 32-35 of age" relates to an article about conscription. My understanding is that conscripts in Greece are well below that age. Secondly, I would very much appreciate seeing statistics to back up this (and other) contentious claims in the article.

[edit] Clean-up

I've done some revision to this over the last few days. This involved moving around (many!) pieces of text under different headings. So before anyone get undully upset, your text is probably still in the article. :)